Penny Henry III.

[Spatenpaulus]

Hello Friends,

i have a Henry III. Penny here. The inscription reads ILGER EN LUNDE instead of ILGER ON LUNDE.

Is this error known?

Best regards

Rene

[Coinery]

Hi Rene…take a look on here, it’s a great resource. Equally, LVND and LVNDE is used frequently and interchangeably across many coins.

https://www.rodblunt.com/short-cross-pennies

[jelida]

Nice legend error, yes definitely EN not ON. Mass or Blunt would be good research sources. I’ll have a look tomorrow if I have time.

Jerry

[Coinery]

I of course totally misread the question  

[Coinery]

Could also be worth a look here too!

https://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/14620-resource-henry-iii-pennies-by-rob-page/

 

[Coys55]

I've checked my copies of Mass and the very comprehensive Short Cross Legends (by Gerry Slevin) and neither have it, so yes it appears to be a very nice unrecorded variant.

I think it's a class 7a3, although I'm happy to be corrected.

I've emailed Gerry for his opinion on the variant and the class.

[Coys55]

Gerry agrees that it is a class 7a3 and is a new reverse legend to him.

And if Gerry says it's new to him, then I it's probably new to everyone.

 

Good find Rene.

[Spatenpaulus]

Thank you very much for your quick answer.

The coin was found together with other coins (pennys Henry III and denarii of bishop Konrad von Hochstaden) near cologne. 

[Ukstu]

I wonder if its a continental imitation ?

Few things seem odd. The hair ringlets merging into the crown and the angle they are on plus the letter R in Henric and the shape of last E in Lunde and rough cut initial cross. Maybe its just me though. Nice find either way and definitely an interesting one. 

[Coys55]

1 hour ago, Ukstu said:

I wonder if its a continental imitation ?

Few things seem odd. The hair ringlets merging into the crown and the angle they are on plus the letter R in Henric and the shape of last E in Lunde and rough cut initial cross. Maybe its just me though. Nice find either way and definitely an interesting one. 

I wondered that too, but thought it looked a bit too good for one of those.

The fact it was found in Europe does make me wonder again though and I did think that the initial cross was a bit weird as well. 
 

 

[Ukstu]

1 hour ago, Coys55 said:

I wondered that too, but thought it looked a bit too good for one of those.

The fact it was found in Europe does make me wonder again though and I did think that the initial cross was a bit weird as well. 
 

 

Glad you thought that as well. It jumped out at me straight away.It gave me a migraine scrutinising it lol. 

[Ukstu]

Something else that i noticed but forgot to put in my original post. The mouth. Its usually made up of 3 small crescents . Two on top , one on the bottom. That looks like half a circle with a line under it.

 

[Coys55]

9 hours ago, Ukstu said:

Something else that i noticed but forgot to put in my original post. The mouth. Its usually made up of 3 small crescents . Two on top , one on the bottom. That looks like half a circle with a line under it.

 

Now we know its origins Gerry agrees that there may be enough irregularities for it to be a continental, although with the short-cross series irregularities are not necessarily indicative of anything. He says he'll take another look at it when he has some time.

Rene, maybe you could post some pictures of the other Henry III coins is the find so that we can try to ID those and determine if they are English or possible continentals?

[Spatenpaulus]

Here some pictures of the other coins.

[Ukstu]

They are all good English coins. One is a class 4b of Richard that I can make out two are also Henry III. The Walter one is John (6a)  & ADAH ( Adam) one is 7b3.

I was wrong about the other one i feel. I agree with the initial assessment from Coys55 that it is a new 7a3 find. Apologies to all for any confusion I may have caused. 

 

Edited November 7, 2024 by Ukstu
Typo

[Coys55]

2 hours ago, Ukstu said:

They are all good English coins. One is a class 4b of Richard that I can make out two are also Henry III. The Walter one is John (6a)  & ADAH ( Adam) one is 7b3.

I was wrong about the other one i feel. I agree with the initial assessment from Coys55 that it is a new 7a3 find. Apologies to all for any confusion I may have caused. 

 

I agree that the fact that the others are all clearly English and mostly class 6 and 7 makes the Ilger more likely than not English too rather than a continental imitation. I don't think we can rule it out completely yet though.

Either way it's a nice group.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Coys55