Another 1695 Dei Gratia Half Penny

[rooneydog]

Another makes an appearance https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/William-III-halfpenny-1695-GVLIELMVS-DEI-GRATIA-extremely-rare/114488732476?hash=item1aa80f6b3c:g:7asAAOSwC4JfmrBP

Does anyone know if Spink have listed this yet as my newest spink is 2015 ? Thanks.

Edited October 29, 2020 by rooneydog
grammar

[oldcopper]

No it hasn't I think was the gist of the last conversation.

That is one **** coin for the asking price! Still, interesting there are quite a few out there. 

[rooneydog]

That's the 6th and the worst I know of.

[Rob]

I think it is safe to say I couldn't live with that.

It's like virtually every other rarity when it comes to regular currency coins. Once the variety is documented, a handful appear in reasonably quick time.

[copper123]

The price shows just how little halfpennies are collected I am afraid - it is however a very interesting coin.Though it's probably 1695 it would have been great to see the date on the coin.

Edited October 29, 2020 by copper123

[oldcopper]

Talking of rarities in awful condition, here's a type coin of similar rarity to the above 1695 DEI GRATIA that cost £280 including extras (ex Noble Numismatics - the price kept coming down every time it didn't sell). And as for the edge lettering.....well I think I may be able to make out one letter....possibly. Anyway, it's ex Weightman and Hoblyn and went for £660 hammer at Baldwin's back in 2007. The reverse is worse but the obverse is of course the important side.

Edited October 30, 2020 by oldcopper

[Rob]

I remember that. I made a point of not bidding. I should have gone for the Nicholson coin, but I vaguely recall that went to Japan in Stone's LCA sale. Might be wrong though.

[oldcopper]

It started off at A$1400, and came down in increments to A$450 (that's on the archive). I don't know how much further it would have come down if no-one had bid for it - but the vendor was presumably already nursing a big loss if they bought it at Baldwin's, so might have withdrawn it. Call it a gap filler! The last I saw of the Nicholson piece was DNW June 2013 in Andrew Scottern's (?) collection, £1200 hammer. I haven't heard of it in LCA - I'll look that up. 

 

[Rob]

6 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

It started off at A$1400, and came down in increments to A$450 (that's on the archive). I don't know how much further it would have come down if no-one had bid for it - but the vendor was presumably already nursing a big loss if they bought it at Baldwin's, so might have withdrawn it. Call it a gap filler! The last I saw of the Nicholson piece was DNW June 2013 in Andrew Scottern's (?) collection, £1200 hammer. I haven't heard of it in LCA - I'll look that up. 

 

In that case I was thinking of something else going to Japan.

[oldcopper]

Yes it's not in the LCA database. 

[DaveG38]

48 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

Yes it's not in the LCA database. 

That's 'cos I have it. As Rob says £1200 at DNW. Of course Nicholson also had the other type of 1689 where the ET is to the left of the busts. I'm still looking for one of these if any exist beyond Nicholson's.

[oldcopper]

3 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

That's 'cos I have it. As Rob says £1200 at DNW. Of course Nicholson also had the other type of 1689 where the ET is to the left of the busts. I'm still looking for one of these if any exist beyond Nicholson's.

Yes, amazingly another P.565 does exist, but in bad shape, as sold in CC's Dec 2006/Jan 2007 catalogue item 992. I quote:

Heavily corroded but salient details are still visible. Of the highest rarity. Apart from the Nicholson specimen (which realised £2800 and is the photographed coin in the Spink 2005 year book), we know of no other specimen. Bought from CCA #55 13/4/1988. Ex P.W. Laurence        £150.

I don't think anyone knew there was a second specimen until this one turned up.

Edited October 30, 2020 by oldcopper

[DaveG38]

1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

Yes, amazingly another P.565 does exist, but in bad shape, as sold in CC's Dec 2006/Jan 2007 catalogue item 992. I quote:

Heavily corroded but salient details are still visible. Of the highest rarity. Apart from the Nicholson specimen (which realised £2800 and is the photographed coin in the Spink 2005 year book), we know of no other specimen. Bought from CCA #55 13/4/1988. Ex P.W. Laurence        £150.

I don't think anyone knew there was a second specimen until this one turned up.

Thanks for this. £150 in 1988 was a pretty tidy sum, so I'd guess it would go for a decent price now, despite its apparently poor grade. I've occasionally bought Thames mud finds from a guy who goes detecting (got my first 1689 from him) so I'll have to hope he can dredge one up!!!

[Rob]

The Nicholson P565 went through LCA in both Nov. 2004 and June 2005 @ £2K and £2500 hammer respectively. It went to Japan on the second occasion, which is where I remember that from, and the previous November's sale had Stone's collection.

I now remember why I didn't go for the W&M at both sales. Stone's sale in 2004 had a lot of rarities that commanded my attention including the 1719 grained edge 1st issue 1/2d (Peter Jackson had bought Nicholson's, but still bid against me in the room) and I picked up my 1734/3 halfpenny, which despite only a bit better than VF-gVF is still a full grade higher than the few others I've seen. It was a case of being spoilt for choice.

Included in a few purchases at the second sale there were a couple of 1947 proof shillings which I wanted, and a 1673 halfpenny slabbed NGC MS65, which was obviously a 1675/3 in hand without magnification and would be a sensible replacement for my previously PCGS MS64 slabbed 1673 (also 5/3). Having waited for the 1673, I picked it up at opening bid , so sold the 1675/3 and replaced it with the new one, only to discover later that the new 1675/3 was in fact 1675/3/2. I never got round to replacing the 5/3. In addition to these three, I eventually ended up with a proof 1957 halfpenny, Nicholson's P607 and half a dozen others from the collection, a Weyl 1887 tin halfpenny, a few Vicky shillings and halfpennies and several hammered shillings in the space of a few days. Given sufficient liquidity I could have happily spent 10 or 20 times the amount considering the rarities on offer at that time, with both the LCA sale and Goldberg's Cheshire Collection up for grabs on successive weekends. Prices then look so much more affordable from today's perspective.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Rob

[oldcopper]

10 hours ago, Rob said:

The Nicholson P565 went through LCA in both Nov. 2004 and June 2005 @ £2K and £2500 hammer respectively. It went to Japan on the second occasion, which is where I remember that from, and the previous November's sale had Stone's collection.

I now remember why I didn't go for the W&M at both sales. Stone's sale in 2004 had a lot of rarities that commanded my attention including the 1719 grained edge 1st issue 1/2d (Peter Jackson had bought Nicholson's, but still bid against me in the room) and I picked up my 1734/3 halfpenny, which despite only a bit better than VF-gVF is still a full grade higher than the few others I've seen. It was a case of being spoilt for choice.

Included in a few purchases at the second sale there were a couple of 1947 proof shillings which I wanted, and a 1673 halfpenny slabbed NGC MS65, which was obviously a 1675/3 in hand without magnification and would be a sensible replacement for my previously PCGS MS64 slabbed 1673 (also 5/3). Having waited for the 1673, I picked it up at opening bid , so sold the 1675/3 and replaced it with the new one, only to discover later that the new 1675/3 was in fact 1675/3/2. I never got round to replacing the 5/3. In addition to these three, I eventually ended up with a proof 1957 halfpenny, Nicholson's P607 and half a dozen others from the collection, a Weyl 1887 tin halfpenny, a few Vicky shillings and halfpennies and several hammered shillings in the space of a few days. Given sufficient liquidity I could have happily spent 10 or 20 times the amount considering the rarities on offer at that time, with both the LCA sale and Goldberg's Cheshire Collection up for grabs on successive weekends. Prices then look so much more affordable from today's perspective.

I heard the vendor lost quite a bit of money in that 2004 LCA sale, probably because much of his stuff, eg Nicholson's coins, had been on the market only a few months before. So the fantastic 1685 halfpenny for instance cost him £6,100 and sold for £4,400 hammer, the P.565 was £2,800 Nicholson, went for £2K hammer and so on. It was a good auction to buy stuff at.

Nicholson's P.565 resurfaced in the Pywell-Phillips Spink auction in late 2018 - £1,800 hammer. It was erroneously provenanced to Peck - as I joked to Greg, it had been owned by everyone except Peck! A great collection by the way.

Dave - sorry I wrote a bit ambiguously - the P.565 was £150 in Colin Cooke's 2006/7 catalogue. I don't know what the Croydon Coins price was.