Clever Fakes

[Guest Peter_I'm_a_Guest]

These copies of coins worry me as a beginner 'cos I can imagine that some people could be easily taken in into thinking that are being offered the real thing!! Are there ways to avoid falling into this trap?

www.24carat.co.uk/reprocoincharlesicrown.html

Peter.

[Chris Perkins]

Kuhli says (sorry Kuhli I moved this while you were posting):

Simple motto of coin collectors:

Buy the book before you buy the coin!

If you do not take the time to research the material, and know what you are getting, then caveat emptor.

[kuhli]

Are there ways to avoid falling into this trap?

Simple motto of coin collectors:

Buy the book before you buy the coin!

If you do not take the time to research the material, and know what you are getting, then caveat emptor.

Not to sound offensive, but I don't think anyone on this message board would be misled into thinking those coins are real. Why? Because most all of us here have the basic knowledge of coins to know that such a coin is not common, and would not be available at such a price. And if they were being sold for their realistic value (£1000+), all of us here would be asking questions and checking reference books BEFORE we made a purchase. The only people I can see being misled by these copies are those who are asking to be misled, by their greed and ignorance.

This is one of the basic conundrums of coin collecting. When a truly rare numismatic piece is sold, bringing 6 and 7 figure prices, it is sensationalized in the media. This brings out all of the fortune seekers who think that ALL coins are rare and worth major money. This also brings out all the less desirable types who would prey on these fortune seekers. And thus, the tarnished reputation of coin collecting gets damaged again. People are so blinded by greed that everytime someone offers to sell Chris one of those "rare, limited edition" Churchill crowns, and he offers them 50p for it, Chris suddenly becomes the villian, trying to swindle their precious fortunes away from them with a mere token pittance offering. (trust me, I know this to be true )

Education is the answer to your question. And that is why Chris has put this message board up, to serve the collector. Ask your questions! The only stupid question is the one not asked. We were all novices at one time. Knowledge is something that can and should be freely shared among all of us. And on this forum, it is.

[kuhli]

(sorry Kuhli I moved this while you were posting):

I was busy typing a more in-depth reply to the original question over here while you were moving my reply.

[Chris Perkins]

Actually, I put the message board up so that I can try as often as possible to sell stuff to it's members!

But seriously (although that does happen) I did also put this board up to serve as a reference point for interested parties, and it's also handy because if people ask questions in here it usually means I get one less email!

Knowledge is the key, as Mr Kuhli says.

And, I would never pay as much as 50p for a Churchill Crown. I'd wince if I had to pay (25p) face value!

[Guest Guest]

Overpriced, oversexed, and over here.

Wouldn't pay £45 for 10 of these things.

Save and buy the real thing.

[Guest Guest]

Actually, I put the message board up so that I can try as often as possible to sell stuff to it's members!

But seriously (although that does happen) I did also put this board up to serve as a reference point for interested parties, and it's also handy because if people ask questions in here it usually means I get one less email!

Knowledge is the key, as Mr Kuhli says.

And, I would never pay as much as 50p for a Churchill Crown. I'd wince if I had to pay (25p) face value!

I will gladly sell you any and all Churchill crowns for a mere 1/8 in old farthings.

[Chris Perkins]

I will gladly sell you any and all Churchill crowns for a mere 1/8 in old farthings.

Alright, 1s 8d sounds fine, I have loads of farthings laying around GV - EII

[TomGoodheart]

These copies of coins worry me as a beginner 'cos I can imagine that some people could be easily taken in into thinking that are being offered the real thing!! Are there ways to avoid falling into this trap?

It isn't so much that particular 'coin' that worries me - as Kuhli says education will sort that out - it's things like this Warrens Replica Coins that make me wonder if there shouldn't be a requirement to make repros more clearly.. well, repro!

Edited March 23, 2005 by TomGoodheart

[Peter]

Personally I wish all these forgers were sent to the Tower.

However they are doing nothing illegal....However if they were to display at a fair I would be happy to knocking over the table or try to buy a coin with counterfit money.

I would suggest a hammered forgery wouldn't be too difficut.

[Geordie582]

One thing that bothers me is that, some time ago I recall, that E-bay promised to insist that 'reproduction' would have to be included in the title of all such coins. Nothing happened!!

Edited March 24, 2005 by Geordie582

[Emperor Oli]

That scheister Gary Phelps has had to do it. All he seems to sell is tacky repros and all out fakes. They're even on Andy's site - I was on the point of emailing Andy to ask him to ban him because he lowers the tone!

[mint_mark]

They do seem to be quite popular though, so someone must be enjoying them. Colin Cooke always seems to have a few going on ebay, and you don't get much more respected than that!

As long as we can tell the difference... and I think we can... then I don't think it's our place to spoil someone else's fun. I once bought some coins from Middle Earth for a friend because he was mad about Lord of the Rings... they had Elvish writing on and everything. Is that very different from a Roman re-enactment enthusiast wanting some denarii for their purse? And then it's only a small step to a keen coin collector who would like something with a portrait of Edward VIII.

[Half Penny Jon]

Hi all. Whilst working in my shop, I discovered a fake 1997 £1. It was very obviously fake because almost all of it was a silvery colour with the rest of the coin covered in gold paint. When I got home I discovered that the gold paint was very weak so I removed some but not all of it. I don't know what the metal is, possibly tin? Is this quite a common year for fakes? This is the first one I've ever seen in my 8 months working in my shop so I presume that it is quite rare. Anyhow, I plan to auction it on Ebay in a week or so...

[Peter]

A few years back whilst working in East London the elderly lady cleaners used to sell them (about 40p each).

(Together with Baccy,fags and cheap spirits.)

I can remember getting a few in my change during this period.

I put them in my money tray at home which was then raided my the Missus and spent obliviously at M&S.

Personally I would be more worried about buying forgeries of collectable coins.

I'm still looking for a decent 1775 1/2d (although forgeries from this period are now collectable in their own right).

I've got a few.

I was aware of rumours surrounding forged 1905 2/6's...has anyone come accross these....now there is an idea...knock em out for 40p each.

[mint_mark]

Is this quite a common year for fakes? This is the first one I've ever seen in my 8 months working in my shop so I presume that it is quite rare. Anyhow, I plan to auction it on Ebay in a week or so...

I only have two fakes in my collection and they are 2000 and 2001. I only really collect them if they have very obvious design mistakes.

Ebay might not be a good idea... because it is a counterfeit of a legal tender coin I think it is technically illegal to pass it on in any way. It would be different if it was an old counterfeit of an old coin that could not be spent.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/currstamps.html

I found this site which has a bit about fake pound coins... but the end of the page about fake five pound coins is even more interesting!

http://www.coinauthentication.co.uk/newsletter1.html

[Chris Perkins]

That bloke Robert Mathews is a strange fellow. He asked me if I wanted to cross-link, and we did for a short while. I saw his conterfeit newsletter thing and thought it was quite good. I asked if I could publish it on predecimal.com giving him full credit with lots of links etc.

I knocked up a version of the newsletter on my webspace to show him how it would look (I also pointed out that the HTML coding was rubbish and too slow for dial-up). He went spare and asked me to remove it immediately, and basically said it was very underhand etc etc (?). So I removed it of course (even though no one would ever have seen it except him because I pointed him at it). I really don't think he understood that publishing it on predecimal would have generated loads of visitors for him.

He removed my link right away and never spoke to me again (even though I asked a few months later about a coin I wanted him to look at....he ignored me).

You have to work together if you have related websites...Andy Bruce and I know about that, and because of it, we both prosper.

Strange. (I kept his link on my links page though, as he provides a service my visitors may find useful)

[mint_mark]

Strange. (I kept his link on my links page though, as he provides a service my visitors may find useful)

Well, I just read all three of his newsletters and it has left me with the impression that almost no area of coin collecting is safe from counterfeits. If they find it worthwhile to counterfeit uncleaned Roman coins and sell them in bulk for a few pence each, then they will counterfeit anything that anyone is prepared to buy... no matter how cheap.

How worried are you Chris, as a dealer? Are you confident you can authenticate everything that passes by you? As a collector I feel very wary of buying anything I'm not familiar with and less confident about what I thought I did know about! Best stick to trusted dealers!!

I did like the picture of the 1877 jubilee crown though

[Chris Perkins]

How worried are you Chris, as a dealer? Are you confident you can authenticate everything that passes by you?

I suppose it's down to me to make sure I'm as informed as I need to be. The main thing, as a coin dealer with a reputation to keep I really can't afford to get involved with areas I know little about. Or at least I shouldn't try to sell coins about which i know nothing about.

For example, I once bought a large amount of coins from a woman who's dead dad used to be a coin dealer. I was pushed for time and I went through what she had quite briefly and paid her some money and left. I got the coins back home and among them was an ancient Greek coin, an expensive one at that if it were real, but I wasn't sure, so I didn't try to sell it, just locked it away in a box.

On my next visit to the UK I thought i'd see if I could arrange to see here again, as there were things I remembered and probably could have looked at more thoroughly. I went back, bought mostly scrap silver and left overs. Among the left overs was an ancient Greek coin, exactly the same shape, weigh, die alignment, size etc as the one I got on the first visit! Impossible to get 2 absolutely identical ancient Greek coins....... Both fakes of course.

So, in short, I simply don't sell what I don't know.