New Find? 1848 Gold Godless Florin Pattern

[VickySilver]

First, I have to say this IS NOT MINE!

OK, I have a few old Spink Auction catalogues, but none as old as this. On the PCGS chatroom site there is a recent visitor that claims to have from his father's estate an 1848 Godless Gold Florin pattern that his dad obtained from a Spink 1974 LA Hilton Auction. Was there such a sale, and did it feature a gold pattern florin?

I certainly give pause to calculate its value if genuine!

Edited April 8, 2018 by VickySilver

[rpeddie]

 

[Stuntman]

There seems to be a reference to it in Krause's standard catalog of world gold coins too - page 707:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tXSrLbIEDBMC&pg=PA707&lpg=PA707&dq=gold+1848+pattern+florin&source=bl&ots=t4lBCkWMoG&sig=d1QtVz-6WKWFXH_Yl5lISiWmCNk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEsIjnmKvaAhXJWsAKHf5ACT04ChDoAQgmMAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Bernie]

The weight of 21 grams would suggest that the coin pictured above is a gold coin as the 1848 silver pattern designs were approximately 11.3 grams. (many different designs, about eight)

[rpeddie]

Sorry, should have added, the above image was from "English pattern trial and proof coins in gold" by Alex Wilson and Mark Rasmussen.

 

So correct the above would be the gold version

[Sword]

The coin in question.

The discussion on PCGS forum can be found here:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/996983/gold-godless-florin

 

 

[rpeddie]

damn, someone didn't look after that on.

Depending on what the OBV looks like im gonna go for PF61ish.

If this came up in an auction I don't think i would have opened it in another tab its so bad 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by rpeddie

[Rob]

Gold is always a problem with marks, and in the case of patterns where only a handful are known at most you have to take what's available. Some are perfect, but they are very much in a minority. The absolutely gorgeous double reverse 1790/1791 halfpenny that went through DNW in 2006 was one in question, whereas most of the gold patterns sold at Plymouth were definitely not FDC. But when every one is unique, you still buy them if you want an example irrespective of grade.

The florin in question might have been cleaned a little looking at the surfaces, but at least it isn't holed, unlike a pair of unique Anne farthings made into ear-rings, or so I have been told.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rob

[rpeddie]

Looking through the pattern gold book earlier to find the coin in question, i do agree i would snap up 95% of these if i could afford them  

prioritising things I would love one of the 1920's gold strikes if i could ever muster up enough

 

[Rob]

It was the appearance and attribution of the Plymouth sale patterns that influenced my decision to stop collecting halfpennies and shillings to some extent. 20 out of 31 gold lots would have fitted into the two denominations, adding a minimum of a quarter of a million to the cost of completion at the time, with this now unquestionably upped by a factor of 3 at least.

[rpeddie]

what puts me off a bit was that "tyrants" collection that has appeared.

I remember watching a few of those coins in sales in the last few years and cant help but feel that sort of collections like this as well as less visible stanley gibbon types are over inflating the prices of these and ending up getting stung i the end.

[Rob]

Just now, rpeddie said:

what puts me off a bit was that "tyrants" collection that has appeared.

I remember watching a few of those coins in sales in the last few years and cant help but feel that sort of collections like this as well as less visible stanley gibbon types are over inflating the prices of these and ending up getting stung i the end.

It looks as if it has been put together in a fairly short period of time by someone who has decided to buy fame. It has certainly been added to recently as I came second on the Henry VII 1/2 angel with im. Pheon half a year ago. I thought I had a chance going a couple times book, but suspect that I would have still been outbid if I had gone higher. Slabbed AU58, which isn't particularly high, but it is ex Shepherd and Montagu (II) lot 669 where it is a plate coin.

[VickySilver]

I am not sure if the is the W&R coin? 

Well, he does need to get it ID'd with SG, weight, etc.

[Rob]

6 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I am not sure if the is the W&R coin? 

Well, he does need to get it ID'd with SG, weight, etc.

It ought not to be the W & R coin as that was ex Capt. V Hewitt, collection bought by Spink in 1967 and it was sold through Spink in 1994, not 1974 and also in London, not LA - all assuming the poster has the details right, of course. We haven't actually seen the obverse yet to confirm it has the adopted design as opposed to one of the other two. However, assuming it is the adopted obverse...

It is believed the 1994 sale coin was one of 2 known. 

The provenances of two known examples are as follows: 

The first - 

A E Copp, portion of collection sold to R J Hopkins from 1887

R J Hopkins, Sotheby 15 Feb 1892, lot 116. Bt by Spink for £1/6/-

J G Murdoch, Sotheby 18 March 1904, lot 525. Weight 350 grains (22.665g). Bt by Spink £10/-/-

Baron P de Ferrari la Renotiere ('Nobleman'), Sotheby 29 March 1922, lot 331. Probably bt by Spink who were acting for Brand in this sale -

V M Brand (d.1926), collection split between brothers and dispersed from 1930s onwards.

Glendining 13 April 1972, lot 403. Graded strictly very fine. It was badly hairlined by this point based on the image and sold for £1150. I don't know who it sold to.

 

The second -

R Sainthill, Sotheby 27 April 1870, lot 352

S Addington, most of the collection purchased by Montagu in 1883

H Montagu, later milled coins purchased by Spink in 1890 and dispersed. This was coin no. 1595 in the catalogue.

As the weight is not that of the Murdoch coin, it is possible the 1994 coin was ex Montagu, but without documented records cannot be proven. Thankfully Montagu only had one example of an adopted design gold florin as there was no example in his duplicates sale in 1888.

If only two exist, that leaves the new arrival as the impaired ex-Murdoch piece, the weights in the Murdoch and 1972 catalogues being identical. 

 

[VickySilver]

Nice job there Rob - who needs google (not productive) when we are fortunate enough to have you around!

[rpeddie]

I want to believe you did all that from memory

[youliveyoulean]

6 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Nice job there Rob - who needs google (not productive) when we are fortunate enough to have you around!

Indeed, perhaps he should be frozen for future collectors to interrogate. Thank you Rob.

[Rob]

2 hours ago, rpeddie said:

I want to believe you did all that from memory

Dream on. Although I knew there was an example in Murdoch and Nobleman because they are illustrated, the full detail required a combination of Manville and Robertson and the Spink 1994, Montagu x2, Murdoch, Nobleman, Hopkins & Glens '72 catalogues. Something anyone else could do if they wanted to.

I don't have a copy of the Sainthill sale (1870) at my disposal, so had to quote without cross-referencing.  Fingers crossed.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Rob

[Rob]

And just noted an error/ambiguous footnote in the W & R listing illustrated higher up the page.

The coin illustrated is taken from the Spink 1994 catalogue and listed as 'this coin', but the line above is merely a number of references where this type is listed and doesn't form part of a coherent provenance, which could be implied given the layout and the list being chronologically sound.