1953 frosted proof VIP/cameo/specimen saga continues

[shagreen]

Open case for 1951 premium sethttps://www.dropbox.com/s/ezgc7nkb8qdr9ds/1951%20premium%20case%20front%20open%20right.jpg?dl=0

[shagreen]

Taking the 1951 VIP crown as an example;  the Royal Collection could be expected to have such a coin it is distinguishable by additional polish to the planchet and dies prior to striking to create ultra reflective mirrors which then exaggerate their cameo appearance. See link to pics - This ultra cameo is caused by the contrast of the mirrors to the frosting of the raised parts (effigy) of these coins due to the acid etch of the dies prior to polishing "the table" of the dies. The edge lettering is also said to be distorted due to multiple strikes by the dies to a planchet (to bring up the relief). As the planchet already had the lettering applied one could expect such an effect but I haven't personally been able to definitively measure it:

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2p3vim9my64x09/royal%20collection%20VIP%20Crwn%20Obv%20%20468745-1407143032.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u0k9epr37rv5cut/royal%20collection%20VIP%20Crwn%20Obv%20%20468745-1407143046.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rq050exo0c856jk/royal%20collection%20VIP%20Crwn%20Obv%20edge%20468745-1407143018.jpg?dl=0

Museum Victoria  in Melbourne Australia also have VIP versions ( sent to the Melbourne Branch Mint) here is a link to their examples obverse  

https://www.dropbox.com/s/89896ufiubyolap/413640-large.jpg?dl=0

another example sold a few years back by London Coins

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wky67uomruofanh/1951%20VIP%20crown%20obv%20CGS%20case.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lii2rlcxwq7py3f/1951%20VIP%20crown%20obv%202%20CGS%20case.jpg?dl=0

unless the various strikes i.e. proof , specimen, VIP are all in as struck condition and photographed together it is problematic just from their pictures  to properly assess their differences

[Peckris]

4 hours ago, shagreen said:

Here is another 1951 case for the discussion what is the difference between a case and a box anyway? This is an official Royal Mint case will put the open case pic up next sending

That's a case. My own set is in a red cardboard box. It is like modern proof sets which come in a choice of packaging at different prices. Here is a picture of one from the internet:

 

[zookeeperz]

6 hours ago, shagreen said:

Here is another 1951 case for the discussion what is the difference between a case and a box anyway? This is an official Royal Mint case will put the open case pic up next sending

Could it be the VIP case?

[Unwilling Numismatist]

It's by far the smartest case I've seen for the 51's

 

[Gary1000]

My set is in a strange greeny bluey mottled cardboard case, never seen another like it. Also with the VIP if you sit it beside the set proof you can see the differenc,e and picking it up it's so sharp you would think it would cut your fingers.

[Unwilling Numismatist]

1 hour ago, Gary1000 said:

My set is in a strange greeny bluey mottled cardboard case, never seen another like it. Also with the VIP if you sit it beside the set proof you can see the differenc,e and picking it up it's so sharp you would think it would cut your fingers.

Are there any pictures of yours on here Gary, I'd love to get a better understanding of just how different these things can look but I'm not in a position to go and buy them just to find out.

[Gary D]

Struggled with the colour.

[Gary D]

[Gary D]

I'll try and photograph the crown later but I'm not sure a picture will convey much.

[Unwilling Numismatist]

1 hour ago, Gary D said:

I'll try and photograph the crown later but I'm not sure a picture will convey much.

Either way, it would be very much appreciated. VickySilver has shown me a couple of images and I can see how they don't always show what you see in the hand, but as tesco says, every little helps - especially with coins.

[zookeeperz]

On 23/11/2017 at 9:31 PM, craigy said:

a few weeks back i emailed the Royal mint museum in regards to the 1953 VIP proof crown, mine ticks all the boxes in the books but as the debates have shown its a contentious issue, 

 

this was the museums reply, have replied and am awaiting my next reply, 

 

Dear Mr Cook

 

 

 

I am very sorry for the delay in response to your enquiry, dated 4 August.

 

Frosting is a variable feature of the 1953 proofs. We cannot comment further without seeing the coin you have, but even then it is extremely difficult to identify the so called VIP finish referred to by coin dealers.

 

With this in mind, it may be that any photographic examples we could supply will show a variation of frosting to the type that your pieces display.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

 

I thought I would tag my letter under yours hope you don't mind  I sent an email to the BM asking about the 1951 different colour issue boxes and here is the reply.

Dear Mr Fox

 

Please accept my apologies for the delay in response to your enquiries, dated 21 November.

 

The 1951 Festival of Britain crown were issued in maroon and green cardboard boxes. Our records here at the Royal Mint Museum in Llantrisant give no specific reason why different coloured boxes were used, however the numbers of crowns sold at Southbank and in the banks is similar to the number sold in maroon and green boxes respectively. Unfortunately, there is no information to confirm this is the case, and it may be that this is simply a coincidence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Fiona Trumper
Public Engagement & Information Officer 

 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Wow, just a shame Fiona didn't clarify which colour was which. I guess the general consenus will be green = more scarce so probably Southbank. Interestingly Sets are omitted, and there is no mention of blue.

 

[Guest Silverbug]

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/elizabeth-ii-matte-proof-5-shillings-crown-1953-pr65-pcgs-/a/3061-32375.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Open-ThisAuction-120115

Here is a matte proof, 1953 crown at auction...

[craigy]

2 hours ago, Guest Silverbug said:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/elizabeth-ii-matte-proof-5-shillings-crown-1953-pr65-pcgs-/a/3061-32375.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Open-ThisAuction-120115

Here is a matte proof, 1953 crown at auction...

thats stunning, like a heavy shot blast effect, wonder if the ed 7 matte proofs looked like that when new

[Peckris]

17 hours ago, Guest Silverbug said:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/elizabeth-ii-matte-proof-5-shillings-crown-1953-pr65-pcgs-/a/3061-32375.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Open-ThisAuction-120115

Here is a matte proof, 1953 crown at auction...

Amazing to think that was only done in order to get a good photo of the coin for records.

[craigy]

The Royal Mint Museum have said they will have reply on this subject some time next week 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Great stuff!

[Bernie]

On 08/12/2017 at 0:22 PM, zookeeperz said:

I thought I would tag my letter under yours hope you don't mind  I sent an email to the BM asking about the 1951 different colour issue boxes and here is the reply.

Dear Mr Fox

 

Please accept my apologies for the delay in response to your enquiries, dated 21 November.

 

The 1951 Festival of Britain crown were issued in maroon and green cardboard boxes. Our records here at the Royal Mint Museum in Llantrisant give no specific reason why different coloured boxes were used, however the numbers of crowns sold at Southbank and in the banks is similar to the number sold in maroon and green boxes respectively. Unfortunately, there is no information to confirm this is the case, and it may be that this is simply a coincidence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Fiona Trumper
Public Engagement & Information Officer 

 

On 08/12/2017 at 0:22 PM, zookeeperz said:

I thought I would tag my letter under yours hope you don't mind  I sent an email to the BM asking about the 1951 different colour issue boxes and here is the reply.

Dear Mr Fox

 

Please accept my apologies for the delay in response to your enquiries, dated 21 November.

 

The 1951 Festival of Britain crown were issued in maroon and green cardboard boxes. Our records here at the Royal Mint Museum in Llantrisant give no specific reason why different coloured boxes were used, however the numbers of crowns sold at Southbank and in the banks is similar to the number sold in maroon and green boxes respectively. Unfortunately, there is no information to confirm this is the case, and it may be that this is simply a coincidence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Fiona Trumper
Public Engagement & Information Officer 

 

I was speaking with an 88 year old coin dealer earlier today and the subject of 1951 crowns was discussed. This dealer told me that he got married during the Festival of Britain celebrations in London. He explained to me the reasons for the two different colour boxes that the Crowns were issued in, Green & Magenta.

The Green boxes were sold only in the Festival Hall, The Magenta boxes were sold in the Festival Pleasure Gardens on the opposite bank of the Thames. 

[1949threepence]

26 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I was speaking with an 88 year old coin dealer earlier today and the subject of 1951 crowns was discussed. This dealer told me that he got married during the Festival of Britain celebrations in London. He explained to me the reasons for the two different colour boxes that the Crowns were issued in, Green & Magenta.

The Green boxes were sold only in the Festival Hall, The Magenta boxes were sold in the Festival Pleasure Gardens on the opposite bank of the Thames. 

A mystery solved. Thanks Bernie, and thanks to your friend who goes back all those years.  

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Where were the blue ones from ?

#SomeOneHadToAsk

[Bernie]

8 hours ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Where were the blue ones from ?

#SomeOneHadToAsk

I will ask him next Thursday if he recalls the blue boxes.

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Thanks Bernie, and also to your friend.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Unwilling Numismatist

[mick1271]

On 3/16/2018 at 0:13 AM, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Where were the blue ones from ?

#SomeOneHadToAsk

I am beginning to think that the blue boxes I have seen are just discoloured / sun bleached green ones .