Saewine of Wilton

[Descartes]

At the end of Hugh De S. Shortt's 'Mints of Wiltshire from Edgar to Henry III' he puts together a table of the moneyers and the coin types they minted. I have a particular interest in Wilton and recently purchased an Aethelred II long cross penny (S.1151) minted by the moneyer Saewine. Lets assume it was minted c. 997AD. According to De S. Shortt's table (attached), Saewine went on to mint many other types under several different rulers, ending with the type 3, William II penny. Lets assume that was minted c. 1087AD. Can anybody explain how Saewine continued minting for 90+ years. That seems a long time, even for our healthy Wiltshire air!

 

[Ukstu]

Probably handed down the trade to his son. It was fairly common then. 

[Rob]

Sorry, I don't have the book. What are the 5 issues listed for Ae2 and which one is Saewine missing? I'm guessing it is Helmet following the sacking of Wilton in 1003 and the relocation of the mint to Salisbury?

It surely has to be three generations involved. Ae2 ruling for 37 years is compact enough to be a single person, but with a break until EdC type 7, you have a gap of 40 years, so grandson seems more likely (if relevant).

Locations in the interim (Cnut to H'cnut) with a Saewine listed are Bristol, Exeter, Leicester, London, Lydford, Oxford, Shaftesbury, Totnes and Winchester, so one moneyer located in the west and travelling around. with only Leicester and London as outliers suggesting a second person. The two EdC issues involved imply a considerable increase in mint output if the number of moneyers was increased from 2 or 3 to 6.

From the table, EdC hammer cross to W1 first issue, you are looking at a gap of only 4 or 5 years before returning - assuming we are talking about the same person. For the period from Sov Eagles to William 2 type 3 is another 35 years. It must be the grandson if descended from the first.

North only lists 6 mints with Saewine during EdC. Wilton, Winchester, Bristol, Exeter, Leicester and Northampton. This almost certainly refers to 2 moneyers, with one located in Wessex and the second on the Mercian border. The locations listed in North with S(a)ewine during Williams 1 & 2 are Exeter, Gloucester, Leicester, Northampton, Wilton and Worcester. The continual employment of Saewine at Wilton from William I type 1 to William 2 type 3 might imply a third person of that name doing the rounds. The only missing one is Sword type which is a rare issue in any case.

Although North is dated as a reference, the list is complete enough to give a reasonable view of who worked where and when.

[Descartes]

22 hours ago, Rob said:

Sorry, I don't have the book. What are the 5 issues listed for Ae2 and which one is Saewine missing? I'm guessing it is Helmet following the sacking of Wilton in 1003 and the relocation of the mint to Salisbury?

It surely has to be three generations involved. Ae2 ruling for 37 years is compact enough to be a single person, but with a break until EdC type 7, you have a gap of 40 years, so grandson seems more likely (if relevant).

Locations in the interim (Cnut to H'cnut) with a Saewine listed are Bristol, Exeter, Leicester, London, Lydford, Oxford, Shaftesbury, Totnes and Winchester, so one moneyer located in the west and travelling around. with only Leicester and London as outliers suggesting a second person. The two EdC issues involved imply a considerable increase in mint output if the number of moneyers was increased from 2 or 3 to 6.

From the table, EdC hammer cross to W1 first issue, you are looking at a gap of only 4 or 5 years before returning - assuming we are talking about the same person. For the period from Sov Eagles to William 2 type 3 is another 35 years. It must be the grandson if descended from the first.

North only lists 6 mints with Saewine during EdC. Wilton, Winchester, Bristol, Exeter, Leicester and Northampton. This almost certainly refers to 2 moneyers, with one located in Wessex and the second on the Mercian border. The locations listed in North with S(a)ewine during Williams 1 & 2 are Exeter, Gloucester, Leicester, Northampton, Wilton and Worcester. The continual employment of Saewine at Wilton from William I type 1 to William 2 type 3 might imply a third person of that name doing the rounds. The only missing one is Sword type which is a rare issue in any case.

Although North is dated as a reference, the list is complete enough to give a reasonable view of who worked where and when.

Thanks Rob, I did wonder if it was the same moneyer Saewine doing the rounds throughout the west country... it never even crossed my mind that it could be several generations of Saewines working as moneyers, but it makes perfect sense now. I had three generations of my family working as pavers in Lichfield during the 19th century - and incidentally they all had the same name. It initially confused me when I was working on my family tree, but I soon learned it wasn't uncommon for children to follow their own fathers into the same trades as young apprentices. 

Re - the five types: for some reason De S. Shortt missed out Aethelred's 1st small cross type and 2nd hand type so I'm not sure whether he was using an early classification that's now changed. I was initially concerned as the Aethelred penny I've just bought had an old ticket classifying it as a type IV (Long cross, Saewine on Wilton), which according to Shortt's table, Saewine didn't produce! (I've attached the ticket).

I've often thought about the sacking of Wilton in 1003 when I'm sat in the cafe in Wilton over the Summer holidays, and how the moneyers relocated to Old Sarum (Salisbury) which was better fortified. I'd love to find out the exact location of the Wilton mint, but our library and local history museum can't shed any light on it, not like the nearby Salisbury mint, which is well documented. There's been some excellent papers and books written about some of England's mints, but not a great deal about Wilton.

[Coinery]

Great thread, we should at least get to see the coin now?

[Descartes]

Here's the coin in question ... the reverse it a little pecked, but I like the bust of Aethelred - looking every inch like a confident imperial Roman warrior copycat!

[Ukstu]

Nice coin. Nothing wrong with pecks. It tells a story. I keep meaning to buy one of these myself but get side tracked by other purchases. Definitely on my near future list though. 

[Rob]

3 hours ago, Descartes said:

Re - the five types: for some reason De S. Shortt missed out Aethelred's 1st small cross type and 2nd hand type so I'm not sure whether he was using an early classification that's now changed. I was initially concerned as the Aethelred penny I've just bought had an old ticket classifying it as a type IV (Long cross, Saewine on Wilton), which according to Shortt's table, Saewine didn't produce! (I've attached the ticket).

I've often thought about the sacking of Wilton in 1003 when I'm sat in the cafe in Wilton over the Summer holidays, and how the moneyers relocated to Old Sarum (Salisbury) which was better fortified. I'd love to find out the exact location of the Wilton mint, but our library and local history museum can't shed any light on it, not like the nearby Salisbury mint, which is well documented. There's been some excellent papers and books written about some of England's mints, but not a great deal about Wilton.

The article was written in 1948, so Brooke's classification from 1932 applies. At the time it wasn't appreciated that there had been several issues of small cross, and variations on a theme for hand could be easily explained as parochial differences.

As for where the mint would be, I would have thought somewhere close to the present centre of Wilton as you have all the ingredients for an ancient settlement with North, South and West Streets, plus Minster St. The roads to Wilton would most likely be closely aligned to the old Roman roads, so the junction where that takes a dogleg and heads north west up the Wylye valley and the river goes southwest to Shaftesbury would be a good starting point as the centre of Wilton. The old road probably followed the river in the Shaftesbury direction, which in turn may have changed course over the years.

Another option would be a close proximity to the local church. I assume that Wilton was quite important in its own right at the time given it has its own mint despite being only 3 miles or so from Salisbury. Does Minster St refer to an old religious establishment? I can't find anything googling Wilton Minster. In all probability it will be close to water, particularly a river crossing and a Roman road to convey travellers to the settlement.

[Rob]

6 hours ago, Descartes said:

This is far more interesting.

At the bottom of the envelope it reads C/B 'Moon' Colln. C/B usually refers to Carlyon- Britton and Moon was a collection sold at Sotheby 7th May 1901. Fortunately I have P W P Carlyon-Britton's catalogue of the Moon sale which has a note, bought at the sale by Ready (a dealer) and the lot was purchased from Ready. So, you have made a good start with a provenance of J E Moon lot19, Sotheby 7/5/1901, this the last coin of seven in the lot (sold for 19 shillings). This passed to P W P Carlyon-Britton and the coin was sold in the second portion of his sale 20-24th November 1916, lot 1072, where it was the second coin of 3 (referenced to Moon). I don't have the buyer of this lot to hand, nor have I tried to go back into the 19th century, or forward from 1916. But it's a start!

The Hildebrand 4016 reference suggests a timing in the first half of last century. This ref. was used in the 1916 catalogue.

Anything written on the back of the ticket? I did wonder if the 76 in a circle was a Lingford reference, despite the ticket being square. The B is a good match as is the M of Moon, and he also used Rx ligated to signify the reverse. If it was ex Lingford, I would expect to see the acquisition details on the back of the ticket.

There you go, I 've just added a few quid to its value.

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Rob

[Coinery]

That's excellent stuff, Rob, I really don't understand why more people aren't interested in hammered coins, when they are truly steeped in the magic of history in a way that the 'modern' era just doesn't pull off.

looks like you've grabbed yourself a pearler, Des!

I love finding the 'unread' symbol on the hammered section of this forum.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Coinery

[Descartes]

18 hours ago, Rob said:

This is far more interesting.

At the bottom of the envelope it reads C/B 'Moon' Colln. C/B usually refers to Carlyon- Britton and Moon was a collection sold at Sotheby 7th May 1901. Fortunately I have P W P Carlyon-Britton's catalogue of the Moon sale which has a note, bought at the sale by Ready (a dealer) and the lot was purchased from Ready. So, you have made a good start with a provenance of J E Moon lot19, Sotheby 7/5/1901, this the last coin of seven in the lot (sold for 19 shillings). This passed to P W P Carlyon-Britton and the coin was sold in the second portion of his sale 20-24th November 1916, lot 1072, where it was the second coin of 3 (referenced to Moon). I don't have the buyer of this lot to hand, nor have I tried to go back into the 19th century, or forward from 1916. But it's a start!

The Hildebrand 4016 reference suggests a timing in the first half of last century. This ref. was used in the 1916 catalogue.

Anything written on the back of the ticket? I did wonder if the 76 in a circle was a Lingford reference, despite the ticket being square. The B is a good match as is the M of Moon, and he also used Rx ligated to signify the reverse. If it was ex Lingford, I would expect to see the acquisition details on the back of the ticket.

There you go, I 've just added a few quid to its value.

 

18 hours ago, Rob said:

This is far more interesting.

At the bottom of the envelope it reads C/B 'Moon' Colln. C/B usually refers to Carlyon- Britton and Moon was a collection sold at Sotheby 7th May 1901. Fortunately I have P W P Carlyon-Britton's catalogue of the Moon sale which has a note, bought at the sale by Ready (a dealer) and the lot was purchased from Ready. So, you have made a good start with a provenance of J E Moon lot19, Sotheby 7/5/1901, this the last coin of seven in the lot (sold for 19 shillings). This passed to P W P Carlyon-Britton and the coin was sold in the second portion of his sale 20-24th November 1916, lot 1072, where it was the second coin of 3 (referenced to Moon). I don't have the buyer of this lot to hand, nor have I tried to go back into the 19th century, or forward from 1916. But it's a start!

The Hildebrand 4016 reference suggests a timing in the first half of last century. This ref. was used in the 1916 catalogue.

Anything written on the back of the ticket? I did wonder if the 76 in a circle was a Lingford reference, despite the ticket being square. The B is a good match as is the M of Moon, and he also used Rx ligated to signify the reverse. If it was ex Lingford, I would expect to see the acquisition details on the back of the ticket.

There you go, I 've just added a few quid to its value.

 

Wow! Thanks Rob. It's amazing what you can deduce from an old ticket. It appears the coin has been in a few collections... according to the guy I bought it from the coin is ex Revd C Campbell, bt Seaby 1944. It great to be able to go back even further now and think it was part of a collection sold in 1901!   I'm going to have to spend some time this weekend researching J E Moon & Carlyon-Britton. I nearly chucked that old ticket in the bin (as the annotations didn't mean anything to me). In the end I just entered the coin details on my spreadsheet and put the ticket in my draw.

Thanks for the info on a possible mint location. It appears Wilton had a royal palace (now a car park) and all sorts. I'm going to dig out my map in the Summer and go and physically investigate. At the very least, it will be fun spending the day exploring, and viewing Wilton House (where Wilton Abbey once stood). 

[Rob]

Rule no. 1 - NEVER throw a ticket in the bin as it is usually the only link there is to a previous owner.

If you could provide a better picture of the ticket, it might be possible to match it to something else.

[Descartes]

21 minutes ago, Rob said:

Rule no. 1 - NEVER throw a ticket in the bin as it is usually the only link there is to a previous owner.

If you could provide a better picture of the ticket, it might be possible to match it to something else.

Hi Rob, this was my first proper hammered coin investment with a provenance so I didn't realise it was important. I'm definitely more aware now though, and will tuck away any future paperwork in my drawer!  ... I hope this new scan (attached) produces a better picture. 

[Rob]

The additional wording is Long cross Type Br(ooke) 5 B(ritish) M(useum ) C(atalogue) IVa. S(eaby) Cat(alogue) 668 F something. What is the something? The rest makes sense, but is only general blurb. It also eliminates Lingford being responsible for the 76 in a circle because the Seaby catalogue numbers post-date his demise.

Presumably the ticket is that of the Revd Campbell? If so, you could always add it to the ticket thread, as I have no info on what or when he collected, nor when the collection was sold.

The missing link is the collector(s) between 1916 and 1944.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Rob

[Descartes]

Thanks Rob, that's very interesting. I appreciate you taking the time to decipher the ticket. I will definitely add the image to the ticket thread tomorrow. You have given me my first insight into the joys of coin provenance and some leads for further research  

May I ask one further question? Does a good provenance add anything to a coins general worth, or is it purely the pleasure of owning a small piece from a known/interesting former collection?

[Rob]

Can be either. I know pretty much where my 1601 pledge halfpenny has been since 1601. I also know of a Rawlins Oxford crown that can be traced back to the Governor of Oxford, Sir Henry Gage, who was killed in action, January 1644/5. You can't beat a roughly 400 year old continuous provenance. That has to add value - that is, always assuming you have a desire to sell. Otherwise the coin is worth the same sunk cost in perpetuity.

On the pleasure front, the acquisition of the annulet marked Ed. IV halfgroat last spring, gave me immense pleasure in having deciphered the 1874 dated ticket and traced the source back to Hugh Howard (d.1738). Provenances are fun to work out at the time and give a real feeling of success on completion. It is why I would probably sell my coins before my books.

[Coinery]

As the fake market takes a greater grip, the provenance could one day mean everything.

For some of the big faked coins (the gothic crowns of Victoria and, say, the Northumberland Shillings, for example) if you have provenance that pre-dates the best of the copies, then you have gold. 

Don't throw tickets away, ever!