The Question of the Faulty Rocker Press

[Rob]

You can say what you like. Nothing is cast in stone. I wish others would give an opinion, but reluctance to speak seems to be the order of the day.

[rpeddie]

nothing to add unfortunately, don't think i've been collecting long enough to delve this deep   

Always wondered what a travelling mint would consist of though, how were they able to reasonably replicate 1/2 crowns while on the move without everything the tower mint facilities provided.

[Rob]

1 hour ago, rpeddie said:

nothing to add unfortunately, don't think i've been collecting long enough to delve this deep   

Always wondered what a travelling mint would consist of though, how were they able to reasonably replicate 1/2 crowns while on the move without everything the tower mint facilities provided.

I think for the most part a traveling mint was not the case. Bullion, plate or coin raised in the levies for the purpose of paying the troops would be stored in a safe place - for which read the local castle, and this is where the mint would normally reside. It was certainly the case at Aberystwyth, Worcester and Shrewsbury, though York and Oxford used houses within the city walls. The minimum requirements for a traveling mint would be a supply of hallmarked plate of approximately the correct thickness for a given denomination, shears, scales, a pair of dies and a hammer. Any metal processing, such as alloying would require a furnace and so a more complicated arrangement, not to mention a much more lengthy amount of time required because the metal would have to be rolled to the correct thickness. For this reason, I think coins struck on the hoof would be very much the exception. If attached to a large military contingent, then it would be possible to carry all the tools as part of the logistics, but a temporary mint en route would not necessarily be a practical proposition because the troop movements were usually associated with an opposing force in the vicinity, so risk would come into play.

My W/SA sixpence is struck on an irregular flan which is wedge shaped in terms of thickness and has some surface lamination, so could possibly be struck on a piece of cut plate, and there are Newark pieces where the hallmark is still visible, indicating it was again struck on plate. The majority of personal wealth at this time was held in the form of plate, so it was always a major source of silver, either donated by Royalist supporters, or plundered from Parliament's supporters.

[rpeddie]

16 hours ago, Rob said:

I think for the most part a traveling mint was not the case. Bullion, plate or coin raised in the levies for the purpose of paying the troops would be stored in a safe place - for which read the local castle, and this is where the mint would normally reside. It was certainly the case at Aberystwyth, Worcester and Shrewsbury, though York and Oxford used houses within the city walls. The minimum requirements for a traveling mint would be a supply of hallmarked plate of approximately the correct thickness for a given denomination, shears, scales, a pair of dies and a hammer. Any metal processing, such as alloying would require a furnace and so a more complicated arrangement, not to mention a much more lengthy amount of time required because the metal would have to be rolled to the correct thickness. For this reason, I think coins struck on the hoof would be very much the exception. If attached to a large military contingent, then it would be possible to carry all the tools as part of the logistics, but a temporary mint en route would not necessarily be a practical proposition because the troop movements were usually associated with an opposing force in the vicinity, so risk would come into play.

My W/SA sixpence is struck on an irregular flan which is wedge shaped in terms of thickness and has some surface lamination, so could possibly be struck on a piece of cut plate, and there are Newark pieces where the hallmark is still visible, indicating it was again struck on plate. The majority of personal wealth at this time was held in the form of plate, so it was always a major source of silver, either donated by Royalist supporters, or plundered from Parliament's supporters.

Really interesting, i remember a couple years ago being confused by what a couple of articles referred to by "plate" but makes complete sense now to hold wealth like that  rather than ingots or coin. Are there any useful resources on types/designs plate from this period or is it a bit scarce for stuff to survive? 

 

Do you have any pictures to Newark pieces with hallmarks on them? 

[Rob]

1 hour ago, rpeddie said:

Really interesting, i remember a couple years ago being confused by what a couple of articles referred to by "plate" but makes complete sense now to hold wealth like that  rather than ingots or coin. Are there any useful resources on types/designs plate from this period or is it a bit scarce for stuff to survive? 

 

Do you have any pictures to Newark pieces with hallmarks on them? 

No idea re-designs, but pre-war silver plate is decidedly rare due to the quantities melted.

No I don't. There is a 9d illustrated on p.26 in Nelson's book, but the picture quality is dire. The coin was in the possession of Liverpool Corporation, so is in the city's museum?

[mhcoins]

From memory i think there may have been a Newark with signs of the hallmark in the Bobly collection spink sold in one of the last SNC's (cant remember the date of issue 2011/2 ?). I bought the scarborough and colchester besieged electrotypes they had for sale in the listings 

[Rob]

12 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

From memory i think there may have been a Newark with signs of the hallmark in the Bobly collection spink sold in one of the last SNC's (cant remember the date of issue 2011/2 ?). I bought the scarborough and colchester besieged electrotypes they had for sale in the listings 

I don't save images of Newark pieces as they are too common & difficult to provenance on account of the simple shape and design.

Nothing to do with Newark. Does anyone have any knowledge of Huddington Court in Worcestershire beyond what is in Wiki.

[rpeddie]

went down a rabbit hole and there is a book available with some illustrations of plate from this period (Illustrated History of English Plate: Written by Charles James Jackson, 1911) possibly a bit of bias data as all the better pieces that ended up in the book were set aside or not located near battlefields/troop marches? 

Don't know how selective they would be with melting down plate, just more to get an idea of what the plate would look like and the ammount of work that ended up into these pieces. What i imagine is there were alot of simple "plain" plates goblets and cutlery but this would all be lost to time.

[Diaconis]

 

9 hours ago, Rob said:

Nothing to do with Newark. Does anyone have any knowledge of Huddington Court in Worcestershire beyond what is in Wiki.

1

Rob, not much information but it may be of some interest. I'm sure you'll find the site most interesting if you don't already know of it.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/worcs/vol3/pp408-412

[Rob]

2 hours ago, Diaconis said:

 

Rob, not much information but it may be of some interest. I'm sure you'll find the site most interesting if you don't already know of it.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/worcs/vol3/pp408-412

Thanks.

One useful snippet of information. George Winter was created a baronet in April 1642 and sided with the King in the Civil War.

As you might have guessed, I am looking at the HC and trying to find a meaning for it. It has to be a place name. Cheshire has Halton Castle and Holt Castle, Flintshire has Hawarden Castle, Worcestershire has (another) Holt Castle, but that was the property of a Parliament supporter, so unlikely as a source, which is how I considered Huddington. There are other HCs, but not near Worcester.

It occurred to me that Charles might have stayed at Huddington Court for approximately a week in July 1644. After the Battle of Cropredy Bridge at the end of June 1644, he entered Oxford, then left almost immediately when he headed south towards Abingdon, there made an about turn and headed towards Worcester, going via Evesham. He then stayed in the Droitwich area according to one report, or Evesham if another is to be believed for approx. a week before heading to the west country where the Royalists destroyed Essex's force at Lostwithiel in August. This period of a week would be sufficient to produce the HC halfcrowns if Huddington Court was indeed where he stayed. Huddington is 5 miles from Worcester and Droitwich, and 10 from Evesham - so possible.

I also suspect the HC halfcrowns may be the work of Rawlins, who was at Oxford in the spring / early summer of 1644, and I believe went to the W/SA area for the remainder of that year.

[mhcoins]

Do you mean Hartlebury Castle when refering to HC ?

 

[Rob]

57 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

Do you mean Hartlebury Castle when refering to HC ?

 

Yes. Whilst Hartlebury can't be definitely eliminated as the place indicated by HC. We can certainly eliminate it as the place referred to if the coins were struck in 1646 for the reason given previously.

Royalist troop concentrations were few and far between in 1646, with Exeter and Aberystwyth surrendering in the middle of April and Newark a month later, it left only Oxford of the attested mints producing coin into the summer. The only other significant 1646 issue is the 'B' mint coins, which I think had to be either somewhere in NW Wales or around Raglan in Monmouthshire, any of which could potentially be produced up to late June or early July.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Rob

[mhcoins]

I seem to remember seeing a civil war letter from hartlebury castle listing what was surrendered by the royalists after its capture somewhere.  

[mhcoins]

Found it here 

https://johannes.library.manchester.ac.uk/luna/servlet/detail/Manchester~91~1~245749~117256:The-taking-of-Hartlebury-castle?sort=Reference_Number%2CReference_Number%2CPage%2CPage

[mhcoins]

6 months worth of butter, cheese, bacon,  bier (beer ?), Sider (cider ?) for up to 200 men.  

Seems like the royalist soldiers weren't so improverish 

[rpeddie]

"this week on ready steady cook"

[Rob]

8 hours ago, mhcoins said:

Found it here 

https://johannes.library.manchester.ac.uk/luna/servlet/detail/Manchester~91~1~245749~117256:The-taking-of-Hartlebury-castle?sort=Reference_Number%2CReference_Number%2CPage%2CPage

Which sort of confirms the idea that there wasn't a mint at Hartlebury in 1646. When Exeter was captured in April 1646 they itemised everything (see BNJ 1992), including the various tools required to make coins from start to finish. Localised garrisons of 100-200 men do not lend sufficient credence for a mint. e.g. If 'B' is Bridgnorth, the known 30 approx. dies for all denominations would have been far too many for a garrison of 120 men. It fell on 26th April, so with all coins for the 6 known denominations dated 1646 that gave a 30 day period to make and use all 30 dies - that's one die pair per 8 men. Sorry, but that's just b******s and I don't buy it. If there was a large number of 1645 dated 'B' coins comprising the vast majority known of this mint, then it would be a credible location.

[Diaconis]

On 4/16/2019 at 9:37 AM, rpeddie said:

Do you have any pictures to Newark pieces with hallmarks on them? 

 

Here's one from Scarborough with Leopard head (Nelson)

 

[mhcoins]

I picked up the new copy of E. Besly's revised Coins and Medals of the English Civil War book  and he mentions recent attempts to link HC to Hawarden Castle as in his opinion they are an attempt to "muddy the waters"

[Rob]

38 minutes ago, mhcoins said:

I picked up the new copy of E. Besly's revised Coins and Medals of the English Civil War book  and he mentions recent attempts to link HC to Hawarden Castle as in his opinion they are an attempt to "muddy the waters"

I decided it wasn't going to fly either. I was just exploring possible alternatives to the 'siege' of Hartlebury in 1646, which I can't see as an option.

[mhcoins]

for those who havent got the first edition or to those who are considering whether its worth buying the revised edition, its well worth it in my opinion. Although the coloured photographs of the coins arent the best, there are lots of new additons to the book including a large section on hoards, and a more detailed coverage of the provinicial mints