1845 Farthing one dot

[Liam]

Hi, just wondering if anyone else has come across an 1845 Farthing with one dot after the word 'BRITANNIAR' on the reverse as opposed to a colon? I can't see any mention of it on Colins site (allaboutfarthings.co.uk). 

Liam

[Michael-Roo]

The single dot is where the upper one of a normal colon should be so a filled die on the lower dot is the most likely reason for it not being struck up.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Michael-Roo

[Rob]

Noted as a variety for 1844 by Bramah (cf. p118, 57a), so possibly one of the earliest obverse dies for 1845 combined with a reverse die still intact at the end of 1844.

[Liam]

Cheers for the replies!

Rob, do you know what actually caused there to be only one dot on the 1844?

[Rob]

As Michael said - usually it is due to blocked dies on one or both of the colon dots, though a single pellet can't be entirely ruled out. What is needed is a number of coins struck from the same reverse die showing the gradual infilling of the lower colon dot. As the previous year is the rarest of the copper farthings, it should be relatively easy to pursue this line due to the small number of dies involved.

Unfortunately, the 1844 I have in the trays for sale doesn't show any weakness in the bottom pellet, so isn't particularly helpful. I've attached an image of my 1844 if it helps as you can possibly overlay the two images once you have a clear picture of yours. It may or may not be the same reverse die. It isn't the best 1844 in the world, but is at least something to work with.

Maybe others could add images of any they have to hand?

Edited July 7, 2017 by Rob

[Liam]

What would you say is best to look for when comparing the reverses?

All letters that point to a tooth or gap on my 1845 seem to be the same on your 1844, and I cant see any glaringly obvious differences elsewhere. Maybe there are differences staring me in the face and I just cant see them! 

[Rob]

You will get small imperfections in any die which may possibly show up sufficient differences between examples to identify them as separate dies. Usually it is flaws or recut letters that give the best evidence. You will need to overlay them. They will be nominally the same dies, but the closer you look the more chance there is of seeing differences. I can see a difference without looking too hard despite your fuzzy image. The B at the start of the reverse legend appears to have a missing upper serif on your example. The same letter on mine has a serif, but as it is the earlier example based on the date, this doesn't mean it is a different die to yours, which could just be a case of die fill as could the missing lower pellet. A missing serif on an 1844 that was present on your 1845 would have to be different dies.

Come on folks, bring out your 1844 farthings and help.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Rob

[Rob]

A few more 1844 farthings

 

 

 

[VickySilver]

OK, I'll take the last one Rob. LOL.

[Rob]

3 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

OK, I'll take the last one Rob. LOL.

Did you? I think it went for $2200 or $2400. Can't remember which.

[scott]

I have an 1845 with a very weak/ no top dot after DEF as well...which I posted ages ago

[azda]

The 1838 has the same

[Rob]

The problem with common dates is the mintage figures which require dozens of dies in some instances. Used for as long as possible, the end result will be either a totally blocked die or a fractured one. The finer the detail, the easier it is to fill. Couple that with an inevitable small amount of play in the die fixing mechanism and you will have rotational movement which will assist in packing crud into the finer parts of the design - hence you can block serifs with relative ease given the right circumstances.

[Liam]

I'll have to overlay the images as you say then Rob. Unfortunately won't be able to do it until later in the week. I've tried to upload some (hopefully) clearer images but apparently I'm only allowed to upload 500 or so kb?

The one serif B is listed as a variety for 1845 on the all about Farthings site so maybe it could be a later strike from this die? I've had a look at the image on the all about Farthings site of an 1844 with the same one dot, but it looks as if the B has no serifs. 

[Colin G.]

A little late to the discussion.... definitely an area for further investigation. Worth noting the two clear reverse types (http://aboutfarthings.co.uk/catalogue/2016/07/02/copper-farthing-reverses/) for the 1844 and 1845 farthings to ensure you are checking the correct Reverse type (yours is type B ) which will help narrow down the hunt. They need clear distinction, because as with the 1839 farthings some of these faults are clearly present when the die was struck because they are present across a full set of coins without any transitional pieces. Other years this occurs as a result of a progressive filling of the die. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Colin G.

[Michael-Roo]

 

Here's an example of a blocked die on a 1721 halfpenny. Although the ones and seven are boldly struck the two is all but absent. The condition isn't great but, as I've not seen another showing this anomaly, I think I'll keep it.

 

 

[Liam]

There must be other 1845 Farthings out there with this same fault surely? I wonder if anyone has any? Come on people get checking!

I've been checking an image of my 1845 (can't seem to take a clear, zoomed in photo with my iPad!) against Robs 1844 and the only difference I can spot is the one serif B. Can anyone else see anything (despite the fuzzy image)? 

That's an interesting coin Michael. I'm just wondering, at what point does a filled die such as these become a variety? Is it when found across multiple examples?

[Rob]

What you need to do is overlay it on the 1844 with the same one dot and check it is the same die. If it is, then the coin you have will be one of the early strikes in 1845 where the 1844 obverse had been replaced with a correctly dated die, but the reverse being serviceable continued to be used. There will be others, but probably not very many. As the reverse is undated, there would be no need to exchange it at the New Year.

Colin's website showing the 1844 with one dot is reverse B http://aboutfarthings.co.uk/catalogue/uk-farthings/victoria-1838-1901/victoria-young-head-1838-1859/1844-farthing/

That also has the missing serif, so is probably the same reverse die. Any signs of die fill would therefore be found on 1844 farthings and not the 1845.