1858 shilling unbarred A's

[mick1271]

I just bought an 1858 shilling and found out it has unbarred A's in GRATIA and BRITANNIA .Is it a common error ? Bought as a slight upgrade to the one I had which has barred A's .

Will post pics when I work out how to Lol

Edited May 16, 2017 by mick1271

[mick1271]

[mick1271]

[mick1271]

not the clearest ,but they are obvious with the naked eye (not mines , my eyes are done) 

 

[Peckris]

They aren't a genuine variety as such - unless you count clogged dies as such. There are very many such errors in the 19th Century. However some guides will list them so if they're in Davies (for example) then they're worth cataloguing as a variety, otherwise file them as a curio.

[mick1271]

Thanks for the reply .I will list it as an error then .

 

[Rob]

They aren't errors per se, rather the result of die use. Just an example of natural wear and tear, i.e. no mistake has been made at any point.

[mick1271]

I wish i could get better pics up .a couple of the A's are more like triangles ,as if the serifs are joined together with no bar .its quite an interesting coin .as you say ,its wear and tear .the one i was replacing has bars ,but they are weaker than they should be .so are obviously an earlier strike .

 

[Rob]

15 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

I wish i could get better pics up .a couple of the A's are more like triangles ,as if the serifs are joined together with no bar .its quite an interesting coin .as you say ,its wear and tear .the one i was replacing has bars ,but they are weaker than they should be .so are obviously an earlier strike .

 

Putting the two coins in chronological order assumes you have two coins from the same die pair. Mintages in Coin Yearbook gives over 3m 1858 shillings, so we are talking about a few dozen die pairs, at least. I'd have a quid on them being different dies.

[mick1271]

The odds are against them being from the same dies ,but how common are the Unbarred A's ? The only one I could find was on Michael Goubys website ,with quite a hefty price tag (£125 for a F+).I suppose If they are say 1 in 20 (5% population) then the probability is higher that they are the same die .They could be  common ,that is what I was really trying to ascertain from the more knowledgeable collectors like yourself ,Rob 

[mick1271]

This isn't mine ( borrowed from Michael Goubys site, hope thats ok  ),but It is identical to mine .

[Rob]

Here is my 1858 obverse. A mixture of barred and unbarred and nearly filled with some recutting to boot. Same die as either of yours?

 

[Rob]

And the reverse if you want to check for a die match

[mick1271]

14 minutes ago, Rob said:

And the reverse if you want to check for a die match

Very nice ,I will have a look when the kids go to bed and calm returns to the household lol.

 

[mick1271]

It's definitely a different reverse (the 1st 8 and 5 are different .The obverse may be the same ( the wear on mine makes it more difficult to confirm),but if I had to put money on it I would say they are different too .It seems odd that different dies of the same year would clog in the same places .

[mick1271]

The other one I have of a lesser grade (with barred A's) appears to be the same dies as yours .Think I need to get a copy of Davies or ESC ,what would you recommend ?I already have Grooms .

[Rob]

2 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

The other one I have of a lesser grade (with barred A's) appears to be the same dies as yours .Think I need to get a copy of Davies or ESC ,what would you recommend ?I already have Grooms .

It depends on what you want to collect. Davies goes back to 1816 only but has better detailed info. ESC goes back to 1649, but the latest revision is a disaster unless you have a previous edition to reference against. If you want a copy of Davies, PM me.

[Rob]

16 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

It's definitely a different reverse (the 1st 8 and 5 are different .The obverse may be the same ( the wear on mine makes it more difficult to confirm),but if I had to put money on it I would say they are different too .It seems odd that different dies of the same year would clog in the same places .

It isn't the fact that different dies of the same year clog in the same place, rather the same characters that get filled time and time again. Unbarred As occur throughout the milled series. Sometimes described as inverted Vs for As, the crossbars were initially added to form the A and so you need a mint state example or thereabouts to show there is no trace of the crossbar.

[mick1271]

It sounds like Davies would be the one to go for as my early milled are sporadic at best. My collection is mainly  modern milled ,some are not the best condition ,but they are getting upgraded regularly .I will pm you Rob ,

[Peckris]

31 minutes ago, mick1271 said:

It sounds like Davies would be the one to go for as my early milled are sporadic at best. My collection is mainly  modern milled ,some are not the best condition ,but they are getting upgraded regularly .I will pm you Rob ,

Note Davies lists values which are virtually meaningless, dating back to 1982. However, comparing values can be a useful indication to how rare a particular variety is (or was, in the early 80s).

Edited May 20, 2017 by Peckris

[VickySilver]

Yes, I agree in general although a few issues thought scarce have since proved not and vice versa. Glad to have that as a reference.