Edward III Gold Florin

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Can anybody please help, I'm a little confused reading up on the first English Florins 1344.

My 2012 Spink catalogue  (I know I need to update) lists: 

Double Florin (Double Leopard) =6s, 108grs

Florin with no value or weight but presumably 3s & 54grs

Half Florin again no value or weight but I assume 1s 6d & 27grs

but on Wiki I read:

"The Florin or Double Leopard was an attempt in 1344 by English king Edward III to produce a gold coinage suitable for use in Europe as well as in England (see also Half Florin or Leopard and Quarter Florin or Helm). It was 108 grains (6.99829 grams) of nominal pure ('fine') gold^{[citation needed]} and had a value of six shillings (i.e. 72d)."

I also read that the Florentine Florins 1252 - 1533 which circulated widely were 54 Grains (3.5 grams) & "The 3-shilling unit was chosen because the popular Italian Florin, widely used in England, had an official value of 3 shillings"  but the English Florin was not accepted as it was over valued but it appears to be the same weight & fineness as its continental cousins.

So is the 6s coin a Florin or a Double Florin?

Why was it a failure if the Italian Florin of the same weight was widely accepted as a 3s coin?

Also is it correct that only 3 Double Florins are known, Two found by boys mud larking in the river Tyne and one by a metal detectorist. Is it not unusual that no copied survived in collections? 

And what quantities of Florins & Half Florins are known?

All help greatly appreciated.

Ian..

[Matteo95]

Hi 

From Richard Kelleher's book :

Edward IIIs fisrt attempt at a gold coinage took the form of the double leopard and its fractions. It weighted the equivalent of 2 italian florins (7,00g ) ( consider that the florin but also the genovino or later the zecchino had a weight of 3,50g ! ) . [...] The coin was withdrawn and redesigned shortly after issue in 1344 as it was overvalued against silver . Only 3 of these coins are currently known.

the value of this coin was 72 d. = 6s and of course the leopard 36d. ( it's the leopard that had the same weight of florin or other italians gold coins ) and the Helm (1,75g. ) 18d = 1s. 6d. 

These coins according with Lord Stewartby were struck between Jan to July 1344

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks Matteo,

Taken from the Fitzwilliam Museum website, http://www-cm.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/coins/exhibitions/CoinOfTheMoment/doubleleopard/ so possibly from Richard Kelleher too:

"England had no gold coinage of its own between 1257 and 1344, but merchants and the aristocracy used Italian gold Florins and French gold coins. When King Edward III (1327-77) decided to issue his own gold coinage in 1343, he appointed George Kirkyn and Lote Nicholyn of Florence as masters of the London mint for this purpose. The Double Florin was one of three different denominations these Florentine mint-masters were to produce: the Double Leopard worth 6 shillings, the Leopard of 3 shillings and the Helm or Half Leopard of 1 shilling 6 pence. The 3-shilling unit was chosen because the popular Italian Florin, widely used in England, had an official value of 3 shillings." 

So did the Italian Florin stop circulating at the same time, for the same reason of being over valued? If so it show incredibly bad timing on the part of Edward III to introduce a gold coinage just as it went out of use.

Ian..

[Matteo95]

I think the problems of over or less valued were only English .. In fact in Italy but for what I know also abroad the use of gold italian coins remained the same after 1344...

the reason I think was the price of silver in England that was of course different by ohers nations ( see the venetian soldini ( soldino at singular )  for ex  ) as it happened for the penny gold of Henry III ...

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks again Matteo,

I think I have misunderstood medieval economics.

With further reading  Fourteenth Century England Vol 2 by Chris Given-Wilson, I think the English Florin failed not because it was inferior to the already circulating Italian Florins, but due to the disparity in silver & gold prices, so no one was submitting silver to the mint to be turned into gold florins. So there was no demand for them to be minted rather than there was a reluctance to accept them in trade.

From Fourteenth Century England Vol 2 " The new coins were overvalued in relation to silver, and the King's profit or seignorage of £1 per lb. wt. was too large."

Ian..

[Paulus]

Here's what it looks like

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Apparently of the three known coins, they are all from different dies, I find this surprising for such a short mintage. 

[Rob]

Depends. If 3 dies were made and all dies used had equal numbers struck, then that would be the most likely statistical outcome. Three dies used with (proven) equal numbers struck using each one, but only the output from one surviving in any large quantity would be more unlikely and almost certainly indicate a hoard.

When the sample number can be counted on one hand, nothing should be surprising as you sure as hell can't deduce much from the statistics.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

I guess so Rob, I suppose they weren't expecting it to be such a short run so preparing a number of dies would be logical.

[Matteo95]

I think also that a great number of the original coins were melted for the new gold coinage .. so also for this reason we can explain three different dies for only three coins known.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks for the replies.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks to Brian (bhx7) for this added info.

Of the two Double Florins recovered from the Tyne in 1857 one was sold to the BM the same year by a Mr Fenwick (presumably the founder of the Fenwick department stores) I know from previous research he was a member of the Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne. 

The other, according to the Kelso Chronicle of 31 July 1868  "In the recent sale of Mr William Forster's important and valuable cabinet of English coins was a gold florin of Edward III... Brought £113; and was purchased by Mr Webster, the well-known numismatist."  The coin was sold to Mr Forster for £100 by a Newcastle jeweller Mr Lister.

I would be extremely interested if anybody can fill in any further provenance for this coin which according to the BM was acquired by them in 1915. Is there anything known of the collections of Messrs Forster and Webster? 

I wanted to post an image of the Kelso Chronicle but the file is too large and I'm at work at the moment so have no way to reduce the size, I'll try to post later when I  get home.

Thanks. 

Ian..

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Here is the newspaper article.

 

[Rob]

William Forster, Sotheby 28-30 May 1868, English, 390 lots.

Webster was a dealer, so no collection.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks for the info Rob.

As the coin didn't reach the BM until 1915, it had to have pass through a number of other collectors cabinets first.

Ian..

[Rob]

The most likely candidate would be J P Morgan. He went down with the Titanic and his children donated a large number of coins to the BM in 1915. Prior to that you would be looking at Murdoch, Montagu, Bergne, and a few others, but no time to look.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

45 minutes ago, Rob said:

The most likely candidate would be J P Morgan. He went down with the Titanic and his children donated a large number of coins to the BM in 1915. Prior to that you would be looking at Murdoch, Montagu, Bergne, and a few others, but no time to look.

From Wikipedia:

Morgan was scheduled to travel on the ill fated maiden voyage of the RMS Titanic, but canceled at the last minute, choosing to remain at a resort in Aix-les-Bains, France.[46] The White Star Line, which operated Titanic, was part of Morgan's International Mercantile Marine Company, and Morgan was to have his own private suite and promenade deck on the ship. In response to the sinking of Titanic, Morgan purportedly said, "Monetary losses amount to nothing in life. It is the loss of life that counts. It is that frightful death."[47]

Morgan died while traveling abroad on March 31, 1913, just shy of his 76th birthday. He died in his sleep at the Grand Hotel in Rome, Italy. Flags on Wall Street flew at half-staff, and in an honor usually reserved for heads of state, the stock market closed for two hours when his body passed through New York City.[54] His remains were interred in the Cedar Hill Cemetery in his birthplace of Hartford, Connecticut. His son, John Pierpont "Jack" Morgan, Jr., inherited the banking business.[55] He bequeathed his mansion and large book collections to the Morgan Library & Museum in New York.

 

[Nutsaboutcoins]

9 hours ago, Rob said:

The most likely candidate would be J P Morgan. He went down with the Titanic and his children donated a large number of coins to the BM in 1915. Prior to that you would be looking at Murdoch, Montagu, Bergne, and a few others, but no time to look.

Thanks again Rob, I'll see if I can do some digging. around the names you have given me. 

Ian..

[Nutsaboutcoins]

8 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

From Wikipedia:

Morgan was scheduled to travel on the ill fated maiden voyage of the RMS Titanic, but canceled at the last minute, choosing to remain at a resort in Aix-les-Bains, France.[46] The White Star Line, which operated Titanic, was part of Morgan's International Mercantile Marine Company, and Morgan was to have his own private suite and promenade deck on the ship. In response to the sinking of Titanic, Morgan purportedly said, "Monetary losses amount to nothing in life. It is the loss of life that counts. It is that frightful death."[47]

Morgan died while traveling abroad on March 31, 1913, just shy of his 76th birthday. He died in his sleep at the Grand Hotel in Rome, Italy. Flags on Wall Street flew at half-staff, and in an honor usually reserved for heads of state, the stock market closed for two hours when his body passed through New York City.[54] His remains were interred in the Cedar Hill Cemetery in his birthplace of Hartford, Connecticut. His son, John Pierpont "Jack" Morgan, Jr., inherited the banking business.[55] He bequeathed his mansion and large book collections to the Morgan Library & Museum in New York.

 

Thanks BCC for the info, seems there might be some urban myths around J P Morgan.

[Rob]

15 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

From Wikipedia:

Morgan was scheduled to travel on the ill fated maiden voyage of the RMS Titanic, but canceled at the last minute, choosing to remain at a resort in Aix-les-Bains, France.[46] The White Star Line, which operated Titanic, was part of Morgan's International Mercantile Marine Company, and Morgan was to have his own private suite and promenade deck on the ship. In response to the sinking of Titanic, Morgan purportedly said, "Monetary losses amount to nothing in life. It is the loss of life that counts. It is that frightful death."[47]

Morgan died while traveling abroad on March 31, 1913, just shy of his 76th birthday. He died in his sleep at the Grand Hotel in Rome, Italy. Flags on Wall Street flew at half-staff, and in an honor usually reserved for heads of state, the stock market closed for two hours when his body passed through New York City.[54] His remains were interred in the Cedar Hill Cemetery in his birthplace of Hartford, Connecticut. His son, John Pierpont "Jack" Morgan, Jr., inherited the banking business.[55] He bequeathed his mansion and large book collections to the Morgan Library & Museum in New York.

 

OK, sorry. I was going on what I was told when looking at some other coins of his that went to the BM.