1949threepence

Good luck with that one.

My earlier colon after REG has the die crack through the 8 as well as the other flaws you refer to above. The 1 and 8 of date also look closer together.

Interesting that in this heat, even if you have the boiler on for just 15 minutes, the water is still hot 12 hours later. Incredibly, even the saucepan I boiled some potatoes in earlier, was still hot 6 hours later. Obey your thirst folks.

I note that the psychologically important 40 degrees barrier (exactly 104 F in old money) has now been breached at both Heathrow and at Coningsby in Lincolnshire. Last night it didn't fall below 25.9 (78.6 F) at at least one location. So both maximum and minimum UK temperature records broken. As Summer daytime maximums are typically attained at around 4pm, there is still room for maybe a 41 somewhere. Everybody coping OK I hope. I mean, sure, it is hot, but given the hype bordering on hysteria, actually not as bad as feared. I've been using a hot water bottle stored in the freezer for a few hours, and resting my wrists on them. A doctor on GB News yesterday, suggested this was a good idea as it cools the circulating blood, and indeed it has been quite effective. I do appreciate many people will become ill, and maybe some die. But surely that's the same with any heatwave. A prolonged heatwave over several weeks, even if not quite as hot as today, would probably be more damaging than the short very intense one we've got now.

I've just looked at mine through a strong loupe, and there is absolutely no sign of any such hairline. Nor, interestingly, is there any trace of an upward die crack through the 8 of the date, as there is on some. There is, however, slight evidence, barely visible to the naked eye, of the common die clash mark, which shows up between the bottom of the Queen's pony tail and her neck. Often this is very visible and easily seen.

Forget "superb toning, let's have "excellent cabinet friction"

Very fair comment.

The other (very obvious) point is that any friction from sliding about will occur on one side only, typically the obverse, as the date side will be upwards.

Yes, I've often wondered if it's auctioneer's/dealer's hype for actual circulatory wear acquired prior to collection status. In most cases it probably is. Even if genuinely believed, they're only making a subjective guess. There's no way they can possibly know for sure.

Does it really exist in any meaningful way? If it's caused by moving the trays about, that doesn't happen every day, and when it does, the movement is very limited and therefore negligible. Has anybody compared and contrasted a coin, say 20 years after placing in a cabinet, to what it looked like when it entered. Indeed could any changes be reasonably attributed to cabinet friction, or other causes, such as environmental.

I too have read the same thing and that it primarily affected silver dated 1920 - so just one year. The first year when the silver composition fell to 50%. Although there appears to be no confirmation - purely speculative as you say.

No hesitation in posting this 1841 colon after REG. Superb coin, a/UNC with lustre, and a great strike.

Thanks for the advance info, Ian.

Yes, I think there has to be a lot of truth in that. i'd also agree that the period 1858 to 1863 is worth a book in itself. Incidentally, high time we had a new book on pre 1860 copper, including the top quality pics that are easily available today. Can't quite understand why we've had several on post 1860 bronze, but none the other way. Maybe it's a period which never quite captured the numismatic imagination.

Plus some very rare coins are literally an impossibility (up to known current specimens) to get above fine, let alone high grade. Such as the F90 and F169.

Bruce, you might find this information from Michael Gouby, quite useful. In it, he discusses the 1858's at some length, including the variety accepted in some quarters as an 1858/3. However, he does not believe it to be so. Speaking personally, as we definitely don't know what it is, I don't think we can rule out that it might be an 1858/3.

100% agreed.

Having now completed my Victoria copper penny series (with the exception of the Medusa and 1858 large rose, small date), this is how difficult I've found the difficult dates/varieties (a matter of availability rather than money):- 1839 proof - kept eluding me. Very difficult and the ones that did show up, very pricey. Had to eventually take the price plunge, otherwise I'd wait forever. Although if I'd waited, there's 2 at the upcoming Australian Noble auction. 1841 colon after REG: Scarce in mid grade. Very difficult in high grade. 1843 (all types) very difficult in high grade. No opportunity so far for anything above VF. Only sub fine for no colon after REG. 1845 - scarce at all levels. Finally got a decent one very recently (Interesting that although 1844 is technically, roughly the same as 1845 in terms of scarcity, there always seems to be 1844's on offer, but very few 1845's) 1847 Medusa: only saw the one on offer by Coopers Coins. Didn't buy for reasons now forgotten. 1849: A few available in the low to mid grades, but the high grade ones are excessively rare. I was extremely lucky with the one I got. Other than that I've seen an EF specimen, and the aUNC Waterbird example. 1853 PT: have to say, very rare, especially in high grade. I'm convinced Keith Bayford made a mistake offering a GEF example for just £125 1853 PT italic date: you just have to jump if you are lucky enough to see one. The fine example I bought from John (Stephen) Jerrams was sold as a PT specimen only. He didn't mention the italic date. 1854/3 - the real deal ones are extremely rare, and even more difficult in grades above fine. 1854 no colons - again very rare. Seen two, although probably a few unattributed ones have gone under the radar. 1856 OT - managed to obtain a fine example, and that's it. Dave Craddock did have an a/UNC with lustre specimen on offer for £1600 about a year back, but not surprisingly, by the time I called him, it had already gone. Excessively rare for availability at any grade. 1858 large rose large date: not seen one yet. 1860/59 - not as desperately rare as I'd feared, and did get an EF specimen with slight residual lustre.

Nearly all Heatons. The book is based on them. It's a good read, although the latter two thirds I've not really bothered with as it's all about the Heaton coinage issues, most of which are foreign. The book is "A numismatic history of the the Birmingham Mint" by James O' Sweeny, published in 1981, by - would you believe - The Birmingham Mint !!! Although printed by Pardy & Son of Ringwood, Hants.

I've bought two books from Rob. The first was a re-bound auctioneer's copy of the 1854 Cuff auction, and the other was quite recently. A book about the Birmingham Mint, which was from the collection of the late David Roberts-Jones, which Rob was disposing of.

Thanks for solving the mystery, Jerry. I assume it was Bruce I was speaking to. He sounded a little hesitant when speaking, but was keen to add me to his mailing list.