Rob

Josie, the first thing to remember is that we are a collecting fraternity doing this for a hobby. There is not the same need for quality control that you would need as a manufacturer. The publication of a standard reference for new varieties or an overseeing body would need to be funded as an ongoing business as it is clearly a full time job keeping up to date the records of unrecorded pieces. This would only happen if someone could make a living doing so and who would pay the subscription fees to such an organisation? To do this on a commercial basis with just one employee would cost between £50-100K per annum plus the cost of publishing an annually updated list.

Definitely not the grading company. In the case of British coins, their expertise and knowledge is limited to the long established reference books such as Peck and Freeman. It is highly unlikely they will acknowledge a new variety as they are also ensuring they are credible by only using these recognised sources. A long established dealer or experienced collector has far greater clout if they have established credentials in a particular area. There is no one official database, so all information has to be recorded piecemeal, such as in the unrecorded varieties section of this forum. Spink is the closest you will come to a standard reference in the UK and they will record new varieties from time to time based on whether an example has passed through their saleroom or a serious collector has submitted unambiguous varieties for their approval. Whilst not perfect, it does give some recognition whilst allowing the more fanciful wished for errors to be excluded. Too many "error" varieties are based on low grade examples which given the amount of abuse the coin has suffered may or may not be real.

I hope I've interpreted this right. There are people collecting both slabbed and unslabbed coins the world over. The main collectors of slabbed coins are in the US where an investment culture seems to predominate over one of collecting for pleasure. The slabbing companies are virtually all based in the US, and US currency is their main area of expertise. This accounts for their rather haphazard grading attributions where British coins are concerned due to a lack of experience of the older pieces. It is fair to say they only see higher grade coins, but there simply isn't the experience there to grade correctly. A large number of British coins end up being slabbed. Slabbing hammered coins is a relatively recent phenomenon, but one which will only increase in volume now that the genie is out of the bottle.

At least if there has to be slabbed coins, then a UK company with a British bias should be able to get the grade right. The biggest problem emanating from the US is a virtually complete lack of understanding what constitutes VF, EF and UNC for early milled issues and hammered. There are so few mint state pieces extant prior to William and Mary that most people will never physically see one, let alone own one. However, I suspect that the problems with resubmission until the required grade is given will transfer across the pond. It's all down to profit.

* Are you referring to population reports here? If so it's probably worth while me pointing out one small often overlooked point by even more experience collectors. In the US coins are slabbed and given population reports (i.e 12 grade as this 3 higher), however, they quickly become very unaccurate, firstly because coins submitted after that might be the same type and add a few more to the population report. However, simultaneously many coins are cracked out and resubmitted regularly! So How many have been added to that 12 since it was graded and how many lost from that 12 due to resubmissions. Which to me makes the whole pop. report a pretty useless measure. It's simply put there by slabbing companies as a selling gimmick.. kind of "look how rare this is!". ** Another small point which you'll no doubt encounter as you become more experienced, and it's worth holding in mind, "higher grade doesn't always mean better or nicer". Sometimes a coin in EF can look way better than another one in a higher grade. Be it differences in strike, tone, or whatever. Some coins simply have more eye appeal than others, and eye appeal has nothing to do with grading. Let no one try and convince you otherwise. It's an important point that's often overlooked. You will no doubt here colectors and dealers saying that AU58s often look far nicer than MS60s. MS60 might have the higher state of preservation but AU58 whilst a lower grade can often turn out nicer looking specimens. THANK YOU FOR THE INFO, well readers know now that they the collector do resubmit the coin in other grading company so the pop. report is useless at least it is recorded, for the pricise record and for the rare thing, for the company that will going to slab the coin for grading ,the collector own the coin but the service made by the company so in the pop. report if the collector think that there is many or rare type of the coins he have somewhat base his presumption of the price, either the company hype this pop. report or not it is one of the factor affecting the price, is there a policy by the company if the collector break the slab for it bare the name of the company, if he dont reslub it he maybe report to the company that the slub is broken so the company will strip it to there record of pop. report but have a record that they slab it once in the past as for other collector who have many and reslab thier coin what will be the affect on that to the other also for those who break thier slab and dont reslab, AT LEAST YOU SAID THAT THIS THINGS HAPPEN COMPANY AND COLLECTOR NOW ARE UP TO THIER TOES, Also other thing that the collector here in europe is distinct from USA a this forum have been moving into. they dont want slabbing company I will ACCEPT that, in the past watch one of the series of show in BBC a TV presenter said he got to slab the coin to the US for europe as for i observe are also a great collector, At first did the slabbing company got a heavy opposition when they planning to have a company in there, since it was already founded and many more follow maybe at first the company is more precise in their POP. report for it is only ONE,if europe dont what a slabbing I also ACCEPT that but thier are other collector and dealers in thier field base in EUROPE, AMERICA,CANADA, AND AUSTRALIA that don only collect thier coin, but also of the other counrty as well, SLAB OR NOT SLAB, here is the thing thus most of the SLABBING COMPANY EMPLOY A BRITISH EXPERT MAY HE BE A AMERICAN OR EUROPEAN, THUS HE SEE MANY SPICEMEN TO MAKE HIS JUDGEMENT FAIR, IT IS GOOD FOR OTHER COLLETOR TO COLLECT COIN FROM OTHER COUNTRY BUT IT IS BETTER IF HE IS BASE TO WHERE THE COIN SOURCE OR WHERE IT IS MADE, THUS IT IS ALSO THRU THAT US A GOVT. HAVE A BILL OR LAW TO RETURN FOREIGN COINS TO THIER COUNTRY OF ORIGIN THUS THIS MEAN THAT THEY DO COLLECT COIN OF DIFF. TYPE OUTHERE. MOST TIME I SEARCH FOR THE INFO IN THE INTERNET FOR VARIETY IN GB OR IRELAND COINS MOST BRITISH COIN THIER SITE REPLY MORE RESEARCH AND, STUDY THUS ALL THE FORUM FORMAT THE REPORTING OF NEW FIND IS GOOD THING TO HEAR, THUS THIS NEED TO BE PUBLISHED FOR NEXT YEAR BOOK, FOR THAT ONE YEAR THUS ANY OTHER MEDIUM INFORM THE COLLECTOR THEY HAVE NEW FIND OR IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A SLABBING COMPANY TO SLAB IT FOR THEY HAVE ALSO HAVE THE EXPERT WHEATHER OR NOT IN COLLABORATION OF FELLOW EXPERT AGAINST SLABBING, THUS COMPANY CREATE MORE INTEREST IN COIN TO STUDY THEM, SLABBING A COIN A NEW FIND ALL THAT EXIST AND OTHER THAT WILL FOLLOW, MOST OF THE SITE WILL REPLY ASK A BRITISH COIN EXPERT........ ????????? I'm sorry Josie, but I can't understand what you are trying to say. Could you possibly use punctuation and paragraphs and keep the related bits together. Thanks.

You can make a case for slabbing mint state full lustre copper because you can't handle these in a carefree manner as you can do with silver. However, even some silver and proofs in general should only be handled with tweezers to eliminate fingerprints. The problem with slabbed coins is that they may as well be on another planet such is the feeling of detachment. It also makes things difficult when checking for errors, and as for the edge - forget it.

Having deslabbed between 60 & 70 coins to date, I would have to say no based on the amount of wasted time spent doing this.

Tom. I think you should have put in a further option. Most of us are simply indifferent to slabs. If a coin comes in a slab so be it, if it is not then you've saved yourself a job taking it out. I'm not sure members are sufficiently passionately anti or pro slab to say we definitely want or don't want a European slabbing company. After all, everyone has a right to start a legitimate business. It's the irrelevance of slabbing to a collector that is the major point.

Are these RFG's genuine F's or just blocked E's?

A picture would be nice

An unrecorded variety of 1795 pattern halfpenny of type KH4 as confirmed by the rust spots between the knees of Britannia and on the rim. Struck in silver, this die combination was only recorded by Peck in copper (cf. BMC 1044). Struck on a 2.5mm thick flan and weighs 17.32g.

Hrmm, hrmm. Steady on old chap. Only within reason.

It's not a proof. Look at the rims.

Looks like a lot of people were sensibly suspicious of this being a proof. Methinks someone might have an unpleasant shock when they come to recoup their "investment" costs.

As long as there are 2 people chasing one piece there is always scope for disappointment because I know their pockets are deeper than mine

I followed it on the internet. Prices were more rational than of late. The few pieces went significantly over estimate, but there were a lot a passes and around or below estimates. I lost the plot (or perhaps I should say two others did) on the EF elephant halfpenny lot 344 which sold for £7000 hammer against an estimate of £1000-1200. I wonder if they where Americans? was this coin the same as, or similar to thier colonial token. If I am correct it is has the same elephant on it as their colonial elephant token minted probably in London and issued in 1694. They are now know as the Carolina, and the New England, Elephant tokens. Are those pictures your coin? If so, you are in the money.

I followed it on the internet. Prices were more rational than of late. The few pieces went significantly over estimate, but there were a lot a passes and around or below estimates. I lost the plot (or perhaps I should say two others did) on the EF elephant halfpenny lot 344 which sold for £7000 hammer against an estimate of £1000-1200.

Personally, I would have expected good hair detail on an EF or nearly so - yet another example of a seller hyping up a lower grade coin. Good value at $56 though. The slab grade doesn't look too far adrift for once.

It's called image and personal ego. There will always be people who will feel the need to pay vast sums of money for that "special" grade of slabbed coin just as there will always be people who feel it necessary to have £100Ks worth of cars sitting in front of their house whilst having nothing in the bank, or to have the latest technological development irrespective of whether they already have an existing piece doing the job adequately.

I once questioned a collector of milled shillings why he started at Anne and finished at Victoria, pointing out that a small extension at either end of the time scale would have given a complete run. The reply was that if he were logical, then surely he would not pay vast sums of money for little discs of metal only to stick them out of sight in a box. Any collecting habits are always going to be a bit odd to someone, so should we really be criticising those chasing MS68-70 pieces, or die numbers or date runs. My MS65 & MS66 or unslabbed coins are safe from the first group of people yet I can search and acquire from their pool of supplies, I have coins which don't have die numbers and people who collect date runs must by definition typically not acquire the rare varieties, leaving these to the specialist. There is enough to go around for every collector providing we don't all want the numismatic flavour of the month. If your chosen area gets too expensive, collect something else or alternatively run 2 or 3 different collections in parallel.

The reverse looks squashed, but the obverse seems to have retained its shape well to the extent of the border teeth not looking deformed despite the obvious adjacent rim deformation. The question of how well the design is struck up can also be a bit uncertain. Don't forget you have numerous instances of incomplete legend which is usually put down to grease blocking the die and so not imparting a full strike. On occasions this can result in a perfectly flat flan surface where there should be raised features, so therefore anything between no detail and full detail is a possibility. You really need to get it in the hand to properly assess it.

Bizarre. The rim is obviously thicker than normal, but is the rest of the coin thicker? Can you get a micrometer on it? Finally, is the weight abnormal? It looks as if it has been struck in a loose collar.

No raised edge like the tin pieces, so the same as the Anne double obverse patterns which at 2.3mm thickness at the rim is a bit less than the 1694. The tin pieces are typically a bit thicker than 2.5mm say 2.8mm and the raised line is very thin so could be the reason why it is not present.

Yes

Hi Hus. The coin looks to be nearly EF based on the amount of wear to Britannia's left bust. The wear to the laurel leaf is difficult to assess. The statement by Peck on page 375 in note 3 to the reverses that the ball below the trident prongs is an infallible means of identifying proofs I have shown to be wrong with the piece I listed in the unrecorded varieties section where there is a currency piece with the ball in the appropriate place. Also, the two proof types KH42 and KH43 were struck from current dies (the latter having two long flaws on the reverse) and so are also mising this feature. The same applies to the restrikes by Taylor, but these have a plain edge. To distinguish proofs from currency pieces you usually only need to look at the die axis because the proofs are en-medaille (same way up) whilst the currency pieces have an inverted die axis ie if you turn the coin over sideways, the reverse is inverted. The exceptions to this are as above. Picture of current 1806 halfpenny attached together with a P1364 and one of the current pieces with a similar ball. You will see from the images that the proof letters are of much higher quality. The weakness in the legend on currency pieces is common to the extent of almost being normal.