oldcopper

You'd need a deep pocket for most of these recent items at Heritage, but not all early copper has sky-rocketed over the last few years - the slab-grades have the main effect of course. There are two Peck plate coins, but none of the coins including theses were provenanced by Heritage. Perhaps the buyers recognised them too, but probably just going on the grades. All are hammer prices: 1694 1/2d - MS61 - $1200. Surprisingly low grade for a coin that retains lustre, this is the Nicholson example that sold for £1,200 (I think) in 2004, if so it's made no money at all over the last 20+ years! This is the exception price-wise. 1694 1/4d - MS64RB - $7,000. Lovely colour though slightly porous detail, this is Colin Cooke's own example sold 2005. 1695 1/2d - MS63 - $9,000 - big rise on this one, though it has been glossed and lost some lustre since previously sold at Baldwin's 2010 Strickland-Neville Rolfe auction. I saw it at the time and wondered if it was thick-flan (there's only one known otherwise) as it did look unusually thick. It was a bit porous though so that can be deceptive. Unfortunately it was sealed in plastic and I couldn't ask Baldwins to weigh it, because if it was heavy weight, they'd have amended the description and it wouldn't have been a bargain! It wasn't very cleanly struck though and It went for £540 back then. 1699 1/4d date in legend - MS64 - $7,000. This is Brook's example and is the Peck Plate coin despite the dark photograph where you had to squint to make out much. The edge variation matched up and it is of course the no-stop between A and the date variety - which was also not mentioned by Heritage. As far as I know, this was last sold in the Shuttleworth collection SNC 2001 as EF £650. 1701 1/2d - MS63 - $7,250. Also the Peck plate coin and Heritage auctions missed (or the slabbers couldn't be bothered to note) it was no stops obverse (P.704). This is ex Nicholson Hopetown House, Peck.

Sorry Chris, when did I ask you to read the thread? You don't have to read it. I posted the message as Peckris to asked for it. It's not tit-for-tat nonsense, so I'd suggest politely you read it. I was quite clearly laying out, with obvious explanation and official statistics, that we have been lied to by media and politicians (a lie of omission) about the BLM cause, its not racist police but elevated levels of black violence that cause a disparity in per capita deaths, and as a result we now have accelerated DEI, further racism-inference of white people and further enabled mass immigration. I have never posted a vitriolic post "in the past" but you're not having a go at Peckris for suggesting that. What does sadden me is the constant cheap Trump-bashing, see above a photoshop of him meeting Hitler, another joke on another thread from Peckris about Robert Jenrick's seat aptly being Newark as it's an anagram of you-know-what. I mean - is this the level you prefer?

Richard, it's up to you of course, but you don't have to read it - it's got nothing to do with you. Peckris asked for the link, I sent him the message which had his inserts in it. I had to put up with several other unpleasant comments leading up to that message. That's what you get for telling a surprisingly unpopular and pretty obvious truth, but there we are. Anyway, I would like to hear more about Peckris's "nothing but vitriol in the past" comment. Apart from putting in his dilemma with honesty just up the page (the very recent past), based on his previous behaviour towards me, I think he's made it up, so let's clear it up. I don't know about you, but I don't like to be slandered, so I'm not moving on just yet. He'd blocked me for 6 years (as he told 1949threepence, who then had to cut and paste a long comment about Net Zero from me to get Peckris to reply - no chance there of course!) So I'd be surprised there were any of these supposed vitriolic comments in the cupboard. Still, if he produces the evidence, I'll apologise of course, who knows, perhaps I wrote them in my sleep. If not, he's being naughty, it's a strong description and I'm not one to put it into comments in general. No one does.

Well, here you are, not too hard to find, read the whole exchange in "Proof there is no god", last comment June 29th 2020 in "Nothing whatsoever to do with coins". Edit by admin: (Pasted text removed. If anyone really wants to read the whole thread referred to, it's here): Lovely, anyway, more lies in your last message. 1. Give me an example of a "vitriolic" reply I've given you, you say you've received "nothing but vitriol". Do you know what the word vitriol means? I doubt it, but for a good example see your inserts above. A truly foaming at the mouth episode. and this one makes me laugh. Feel free to read the whole thread again, and get back to me with your totally predictable non-change of mind, or perhaps abuse. You must think I was born yesterday: 2. If oldcopper can provide a link to the conversation he mentioned above, then I'm quite prepared to read it and to apologise if it's appropriate, i.e. if what he says is true.

Oh dear, you blocked me straight after your foul mouthed rant. So you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Thanks Chris. It goes without saying I greatly appreciate the Forum, there's a lot of expertise on it.

Chris - I understand and won't say any more, but I am referring to the last time that him and myself had a "discussion" - I was explaining the fraudulent interpretation of data by BLM, now Peckris told me he had these other statistics for crime and demographic correlations in the US (this was back in 2020), I had the FBI statistics which are the only ones of course, so unsurprisingly he never produced his mysterious statistics (he'd made it up of course, so he was being dishonest). On being further asked about it, he exited the conversation with various obscenities aimed at myself, a flurry of eff's (spelt fully!) and other abuse. If you don't mind me saying, you were nowhere to be seen. And I have to tell you. that was far, far worse than what I have written above. I'm sure he's very knowledgeable about coins, so perhaps he should stick to that. But I am very happy to have a conversation with anyone about politics on here.

"honestly" - not a word you're too familiar with, and of course followed by the usual mind-numbingly predictable parroted derision. Trump previously pointed out that Europe is destroying itself with huge mass immigration and the crazy energy policy of "Net Zero". Care to argue about that?

Might be "silvered" i.e. coated in silver or similar-looking metal, a not uncommon practice in Victorian times. I've got a young head penny version. Can you see inside the hole at the metal colour?

Thanks, but I used to visit Birmingham now and again so was hoping to combine a trip. That no longer applies. If I phone them up again I'll see if they know this Dave Symonds.

Thanks for posting, that's an interesting history about the societies. I haven't had much experience of the numismatic academia personally though the BNS journals from start (~1903) are all now freely available on the internet. Peter Mitchell produced an entertaining description of many of the personalities in numismatic life, including museum staff and dealers, which is here: https://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital BNJ/pdfs/2003_BNJ_73_21.pdf I am saddened but not surprised by the Leftward tilt of academia - this has happened over the last several decades and is in general anti-any celebrating or pride in Western history, culture and achievements, though I'm sure there are many honourable exceptions. The social pressure to conform to versions of this mindset will be strong. So parts of academia will exhibit an underlying anti-Western bias and this includes pre-20th century Western achievements (which includes our coinage, both from an artistic point of view and the great technological creation of modern coinage via Soho), as it will be lumped with "elitism, colonialism", etc etc, whatever buzzwords they need to fit the ideology of equivalence i.e. every society's culture/art is the same. An example of this is in the BM's Money and Medals (formerly Coins and Medals) gallery. The display has chronological descriptions around the walls of the history of coins. Now, coming to the late 18th century/early 19th century one would expect a big emphasis on the introduction of the steam press to machine make coinage, which was of a higher and more uniform standard to anything that had gone before. Boulton and Watt essentially created modern coin manufacture, which was then exported/copied around the globe. But instead GB is lumped in with Russia (!) in the title. Reading the small print revealed that we made some coins for them, but at first glance it looks like they were equals in coin manufacture/technology! No other country in the world would so underplay its own glorious heritage. The staff are of course wonderful as I have visited the reading room on several occasions over the years to view their collection, and they couldn't have been more helpful. I made another depressing discovery when I phoned Birmingham Museums a few years ago to ascertain if it was possible to see Peck's Soho collection which he bequeathed to them. Result - I ended up talking to someone who obviously knew nothing about coins (or Peck for that matter). She told me that their last official numismatist lost his job in 2014, and access to the collection was now impossible as it was all locked away and inaccessible. I don't think Peck would have approved somehow.

As recommended by coin books at the time I bought a small bottle of benzene from a nearby chemists back in the late 70's to clean my lustrous bronze farthings. It was 25p (I still remember for some reason!) and they dispensed it from a bigger bottle at the back of the shop. Those were the days, it smelt lovely but it's now banned as a carcinogen, though it was a very commonly used solvent in industry etc 50 plus years ago, so most people seemed to have survived it.

Quite a spectacular overstrike. As Rob says, the GV/B was a discovery piece in the Nicholson collection of 2004 (lot 153), although Nicholson had lost it at the time, and was "still looking for it", so it wasn't for sale!

Yes, not helped by the fact most survive in terrible condition and most were not even properly struck in the first place.

According to Peck barred A's never occur on 1701 halfpence.

I do, but unfortunately it's not for sale. It doesn't give any more information (and neither for the pictured and succeeding lot 323 plain edged, bevelled rim type) than is quoted in L&S. I haven't got the prices realised, and there don't appear to be any estimates (either listed or with the entries) in the catalogue.

Unless it's struck on a thinner flan, a sterling silver version would be about 15% heavier than the cupro-nickel version (from the specific gravity/density comparisons).

Probably be worth more if it was a forgery. I have never come across any W&M copper forgeries. Come to think of it I haven't seen any Wm III copper ones either (though I have got one in lead from what looks like genuine dies). There were so many made at that time (£700 tons of copper coin made 1694-1701) that there was not the shortage of the mid- to late-18th century that triggered that huge production of copper forgeries.

I like the E&D/BG Wm IV coins as the busts are all taken from current Wm IV British coins, so this is his sixpence head, the guilder has the shilling bust, the 1/4 guilder has one of the maundy busts and the 2 and 3 guilders have the slightly amended halfpenny and penny busts.

Thanks. And Spinks lighting makes the marks more obvious.

Comparing the 1837 in both catalogues shows the very unflattering colour quality of the Adam's catalogue. Only fully BU coins or near so showed any orange, and the 1837 didn't look lustrous at all.

I was the underbidder, but thought hundreds would have spotted it, so didn't hold out too much hope. Perhaps I should have gone a bid or two higher.

I presume they'll still be on the CNG website archive.

Yes, sorry, I was just talking about the copper as it would have more relevance to them buying the more expensive Workman pieces.

Though I can't be sure of course, I don't think Atlas bought them as they have got a good eye for copper that they can buy at reasonable prices, mark up strongly and still sell, so eg coronets at what would be $30k plus would feel like a stretch. Also I have never seen them risk buying unprecedentedly really expensive copper ie none of the copper from Cope 1 has turned up on their website (which I check reasonably regularly) with the exception of that relatively cheap 1849. Recent earlier sky-high copper (eg 2023, 1699 halfpenny plus farthing ex Heritage) hasn't appeared with them either to my knowledge. They got the 1849 for a good price and if I'd hung around for it, I might have bid up to that figure if not more. It was less bright in the hand than the 1837 though.