Coys55

Sticking my neck out even further, looking again at the third short cross I think that the first letter of the moneyer isn't an R (it doesn't look at all like the R of NOR), but it looks (more) like a W. Then the letter before the cut, which would probably be the third letter in the moneyer's name) looks like the foot of an L. So that leaves Walter and Willelm, with Willelm class 1a or 1b being the most likely because the L of Walter usually occurs in the second quarter of the coin rather than the first. Oh and it's Henry II. I don't think I can get much further with this one...

I decided to have a quick look at the long cross after all. I think the reverse legend is ERO/NEV, so the full legend would be REN/ERO/NEV/ERW (RENER ON EVERW) That would make it moneyer Rener, York mint. Class IIIb-IIIc

Firstly, all short cross pennies have the name HENRICVS on the obverse even though they cover the reigns of Henry II, Richard, John and Henry III. The coins are divided into eight classes using a number of distinguishing factors and thereby into date and king order. Short cross pennies are my main field of interest so I'll have a go: The first reverse reads AN.ON.NO That and the style of the portrait means it can only be Iohan (moneyer), Norwich (Mint), so Class 5, circa 1206-7, King John. I'm not sure of the sub-class, but the obverse letters (EX together and type of X) would indicate 5b1 or 5b3) as possiblilies.The full reverse legend would be +IOHAN.ON.NOR The second is a bit more difficult, but I think it reads ERD:ON:C (at first I thought it was ERN, but that doesn't make sense). That would make the moneyer and mint Roberd, Canterbury. The colons either side of ON mean that it is almost certainly class 4a* under King Richard. The full reverse legend would be +ROBERD:ON:CAN The third is much more difficult. The reverse legend is OR+ and that's about all I can read, so you have the last two letters of the mint. That would indicate Norwich or Northampton mints. The obverse portrait indicates an early type, so class 1,2 or 3, which rules out Norwich. So I'd say it's Northampton, which also rules out class 2. I think that the mint signature of NOR limits the possible moneyers to Reinald, Walter, Willelm, Ravl or Roberd. I think the first letter of the moneyer could be a W or R, which won't help. The forth is long cross and not really my field of interest, although I do have a few in my collection.

You really need a set of jewellery scales. EBay have loads for less than £5. A cheap vernier caliper would also be useful for measuring your coins. Also £5-£6.

The obverse is a bit clearer now. I can see the eyes of a crude portrait and maybe a crown, but that's about it. 17mm is definitelty on the small side for a typical English short cross (which it obviously isn't), long cross or Edward Penny, but as I said I don't think it's English anyway. Maybe it's a continental sterling imitation, but I can't find any that look like that. The fact is I really don't know.

The reverse looks weird to me with those single annulets in two of the quadrants instead of the usual three pellets in all four. I can't make out anything on the obverse; it's a little out of focus so maybe a better picture would help. Personally I don't think it's English. What is the diameter and weight?

Isn't the RMM statement "there are no “VIP proofs” or “satin finish” specimens, both of which are terms invented by the secondary market and with no basis in production records at the Royal Mint" proof (pun intended) enough that VIP Proofs don't exisit?

That one certainly is. However did it get graded AU? Are those flat areas due to a weak strike or something?

The star is common across several classes and is an initial mark rather than a mint mark which denotes the start point of the obverse legend. The reverse legend is clearly NIC | OLE | ONC | ANT So it’s Nicole on Cant The use of ligated (joined together) letters (ON and AN in this case) on the voided long cross series can be confusing to the beginner.

Classes 1-10 are Edward I. Neither are class 15d (Edward III), so 11-15 would be Edward II.

The first is a Henry III voided long cross vlass 3b, moneyer Nicole on London. I think the second is a class 10 Edward I penny of London.

Neither are class 1a. The obverse legends put the first in the range 10-15 and the second In the range 6-13. Both are London mint.

The obverse legend reads EDWA R ANGL DNS HYB I can't see any contraction (abbreviation) marks (commonly apostrophes) after any of the parts of the legend, although they could still be there unseen by me. The reverse legend reads CIVI TAS LON DON - So the mint is London That obverse legend is common to classes 6b, 8a, 10ab-11, 12a and 13 with 10ab-11 being the most common. So Edward I or Edward II (from class 11). Definitely not Edward III class 15d because the obverse legend doesn't fit. The left fleur on the crown looks broken to me, so that would probably mean class 11a. which would make it Edward II. That's my attempt with close reference to my Galata Guide to the Pennies of Edward I and II Edit: I should add that it is not really my main area of expertise, but I do have a fair number of these pennies (more than 30) and a good book on the subject.

First is London, but not so sure about the second. Maybe an A in the middle of the first part, so Canterbury?

Ah, I didn’t notice the diameter. Could be a threefarthings then.

Not really my period, but it looks like a 1561 Elizabeth I threehalfpence to me. The third, fourth and fifth issues did have dates, although not the penny.

I think I can see DRE, which could make it: Alisandre on C, G or GI (Ipswich) or R (Rochester). That would make it John class 5b or 5c. or Andrev on London, Canterbury, Lincoln or Winchester. Also John class 5. There's definiitely a ligated ND, but that wouldn't necessarily help to differentiate between the two. Possibly a C at the end of the mint signature? So, I'm going for ANDREV.ON.NIC, John class 5, Lincoln mint Anyone else?

Not much to go on, but definitely a John (Class 5 ?) or Henry III (class 6?)short cross penny. Still trying to work out the moneyer and mint

I agree that the fact that the others are all clearly English and mostly class 6 and 7 makes the Ilger more likely than not English too rather than a continental imitation. I don't think we can rule it out completely yet though. Either way it's a nice group.

Now we know its origins Gerry agrees that there may be enough irregularities for it to be a continental, although with the short-cross series irregularities are not necessarily indicative of anything. He says he'll take another look at it when he has some time. Rene, maybe you could post some pictures of the other Henry III coins is the find so that we can try to ID those and determine if they are English or possible continentals?

I wondered that too, but thought it looked a bit too good for one of those. The fact it was found in Europe does make me wonder again though and I did think that the initial cross was a bit weird as well.

Gerry agrees that it is a class 7a3 and is a new reverse legend to him. And if Gerry says it's new to him, then I it's probably new to everyone. Good find Rene.

I've posted an update in the original thread.

I've checked my copies of Mass and the very comprehensive Short Cross Legends (by Gerry Slevin) and neither have it, so yes it appears to be a very nice unrecorded variant. I think it's a class 7a3, although I'm happy to be corrected. I've emailed Gerry for his opinion on the variant and the class.

I’d have been 12 in 1967 and 11 or 12 sounds about the age I’d have been searching. I used to stay at my nan’s in Seven Kings in the summer holidays and get bags from the bank nearly every day, mainly pennies, halfpennies and threepences, but sometimes sixpences or shillings Never found a 1918 or 1919KN, 1869, 1950, 1951 or 1953 penny or 1946, 1949, 1950 or 1951 threepence. Lots of pre-1947 silver, but hardly and pre-1920 I still have the albums. Mostly worn rubbish, but pretty nostalgic.