TomGoodheart

As we've discussed before Rob, sadly even without the slabs, people seem very casual about tickets. And while they are not essential, they are both historically interesting and save time when you want to know a bit more about provenance. I wish even if people don't use them themselves they would at least pass on the ones that come with a coin. (I also wish auction houses wouldn't use square tickets, but at least they are better than nothing!)

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues There are copies in the BM, the Fitzwilliam, the Ashmolean and the Warburg Institute according to M & R. Whether they have buyers' names though is another matter. Spink will have a copy of the catalogue and Baldwins may possibly have one, though their library is a little disorganised. Peters business idea's patent...RPcoins-ancestorycoin.co.uk Ah, but would you be willing to pay for the info? I think that's a bit like the slabbing question. For a valuble coin that you might be interested in selling, then the provenance will add interest if not value and (to me at least) might be an asset. A small cost could be justified. But the idea might not take off if places start to scan their documents and post them online. The Fitzwilliam copy for example it says 'some prices handwritten', but obviously we don't know what details that might include. A (even low res) scanned copy could answer that. Of course, I quite like looking to find out where my coins might have come from - not to the extent of Rob's library - but many people won't have the time or inclination ... I guess the main problem is that it'll likely only be the private collectors. Auction houses and museums will have their own resources they can refer to, or judging by some auction listings, just won't bother.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

Nice portrait. He looks very happy!

Er... hold on a second. LOL Sorry. Just sometimes I forget it's 'Predecimal' not 'Farthing variations unlimited' Nice to see members showing enthusiasm for getting hammered now and again.

Well, you say that. But it's actually London Coins, a UK firm. Of course it shouldn't be too surprising given their interest in swaying us all to the benefits of slabs. But £80?? For a £2 coin? Will anyone buy do you think? It's the London Coin Company, not to be confused with London Coins Ltd who have the close link to CGS UK. Ah, thanks for that Nick. Because confused, I was. And as Yoda says (somewhere) Confusion is the path to the dark side ..

Sounds like you'll need a big cabinet Peter! And returning to Dave's original question, my eyes were drawn to this amongst Lloyd Bennett's latest offerings. I was especially interested to see that while NGC had graded the coin XF45 (which is a decent EF if memory serves me) Lloyd is more conservative in his estimate. Lloyd Bennett Which I suppose goes to show that yes, you do get EF coins. But that when it comes to hammered there's a degree of subjectivity, depending on personal experience and expertise, to any grading.

Well, you say that. But it's actually London Coins, a UK firm. Of course it shouldn't be too surprising given their interest in swaying us all to the benefits of slabs. But £80?? For a £2 coin? Will anyone buy do you think?

L@@K! (Actually I don't know if this is a laugh or whether I should cry ..) PCGS graded Darwin £2 coin

Well, I did edit it to 'pretty much' nobody .. LOL I think if you want to collect hammered then Charles' is a good reign. Coins were produced in (for the most part) considerable numbers and so are readily available on sites like ebay and there are enough papers and books around to serve as a catalogue for what's available and so to draw up a wants list. Plus you have a decent choice of denominations. Unfortunately as Peter says, quality costs. Yes, I've read comparisons with the US market which say how relatively cheap our coins (even 350 year old ones) are, but even so prices have and (at the better end) continue to rise. I've recently cast a critical eye over my small collection and there are quite a few coins for which I'd be very happy to get back what I paid for them so I can reinvest in better examples, but I guess, 'twas ever thus. The more coins you see, the longer you collect, the more you get a feel for what's 'average' and what is rather better than. So, if anyone has any specific Chas shilling wants .. pm me!

not to me either..........each to their own. Did I ever mention how much I like the fact that pretty much nobody else here has the least interest in the shillings of Charles I? Or at least, those that do are in the minority! LOL

That's quite possibly so with thinner / earlier coins. With larger coins like shillings it appears a number of roughly circular pieces were cut from the plate then stacked into a pile, a bit like a sausage. The ends of the 'sausage' were clamped to keep the individual blanks together and then someone went along the sausage with a hammer bashing the whole thing more-or-less circular. This means that you tend to get thicker edges and an almost concave lens like shape to the blanks. The result being that legend is well struck up but the bust/reverse design towards the centre where the metal is thinner is weak. I imagine bashing the edges also caused quite a few blanks to stick together. Coupled with the fact that the dies were not made from one master die but punched from a number of puncheons (up to three for the bust, one for the privy mark and numerous for the lettering and elements in the royal shield) makes the liklihood of finding a perfectly struck coin nigh impossible. And that's before you take wear of dies and subsequently the coin itself into account!

Oh, and an example of an American description of a hammered coin that amuses me: Lot 2161 Great Britain. Charles I (1625-49) silver Shilling (1643-44). S-2843. Tower Mint issue, under Parliament (1642-48). "P" in brackets mm (Spink #98, struck 1643-44). Extremely elusive variety, the first time this cataloguer has ever seen this peculiar mintmark on a superior coin! The standard catalogue describes this issue as "coarse work" and that is clearly an understatement, for the die-work here is almost comical. The reason, of course, is that the talent escaped London with the king at almost the same moment this very coin was struck. The king was under threat of life and Crown even at the outset of the Civil War, when this coin was minted. He was as yet not disowned as Monarch, however, and the weak Parliament which preceded Cromwell's rise to overlordship was the official issuer of this coin, or "in the king's name" as the saying went. If you understand this groundwork, this historical context, you must perforce be impressed by this extraordinary specimen! NGC graded MS62 but the cataloguer is at a loss to explain the number. The coin is clearly Choice and without wear, peering at it under magnification. The surfaces are original and elegantly toned a medium gray color. While crudely cut, the portrait is extraordinary, suggestive of the strife of its day; the king's bodice shows some fascinating little details, vague emblems of majesty. The shield is equally interesting and well struck. So too the legends, although they are only partial, some letters being off-flan because of its shape. The rarely seen mintmark is crisp in detail. At first glance this coin looks like nothing, a crude cobbling of elements. The more you study it, though, the more you realize it's a simply superb example of this emergency coinage, made at one of England's most horrific moments, outbreak of its disastrous Civil War, which when it ended in 1660 brought back a monarchy totally different in power and attitude from that which prevailed in 1643, when this coin was made, almost even then "in memory" of once-mighty kingship. NGC graded MS-62. Estimated Value $600 - 800. The Cheshire Collection. Realized $1,208 MS-62 ... and ugly!

As Rob and Peter have implied, it's quite possible for a hammered coin to be EF. Strictly speaking EF means a coin that exhibits very little sign of circulation, with only minimal marks or faint wear, which are only evident upon very close scrutiny. (Spink) or ... virtually perfect but will have, however, very slight wear on high points of the design ... (Dowle & Finn) The problem as you'll know is that hammered coins were very rarely struck on a perfect flan. Consequently there are often weaknesses which make the coin less attractive or may be taken for wear, but are actually there from the outset as opposed to being due to wear. Milled coins come out the press as perfect as they can be but even then, die wear causes minor variation. How much more so with hammered. This coin for example is pretty much 'as struck'; but you'll see there are areas that aren't as crisp as could be, particularly on the reverse. Plus there's a scratch! It's spent much of its life in a museum (Hunterian) cabinet so it should have suffered very little wear since it was acquired. EF? Could be, because it's difficult to distinguish softness of strike from wear from a pic. And that's why I think with hammered I'm not sure there's much point trying to micro-grade that gVF/nEF border. I'm sure you'll agree it's a blooming nice coin. As for me, I'm happy to leave it at that! Of course, everyone is interested in price. So I think the Spink F - VF range is 'good enough'. If your coin is towards the better or worse end, it provides a guide. But in the end, what you think is an acceptable price for a coin will always be related to the condition of other similar coins you've seen and what they have gone for. That's why I'm constantly learning and revising my expectations as more material comes to light. But it's a personal thing. What I might be prepared to pay for a coin might be much more or less than anyone else, irrespective of actual grade. As Rob says, if the only examples that exist are much of a muchness, what does the grade matter if you want one? It will come down to availability and eye appeal. That's why I'm not interested in what grading companies say. Particularly the US ones. I simply don't believe they have seen enough hammered coins to say what the 'finest example' might be and so I suspect they slant their grading based on what they have seen before, which really they shouldn't if they are supposed to be working to a system based on how much physical wear a coin has been subject to.

They all look Brasso'd to me. And Brittannia's face looks ... really odd, IMHO. But, hey .. what do I know.

???? What the heck? And look at the other items too!

1) Whatever you do, don't clean it. 2) If you have or can take photos to post here we can give you a better idea about it. Small pics can be uploaded from your computer or larger ones as links from photohosting sites like flikr or photobucket. If it's real, it's quite scarce because as far as I know, they were only produced for a couple of years. Can you tell us where you got it?

It's amazing the number of regional versions of our language..... Your wife is fluent in Englsih, GeoffT uses Englisn and Azda is fluent in ******. Brilliant. Yes, all very confusing. I've had to resort to putting this whole page through Google Translate. It's fortunately very good though and so I now know that Az's name is Joke, he is married to a turkey and has a small bear named Wooly. Oddly, I'm still confused.

POETS day? LOL No, sadly. Just I work odd 24 hour shifts so start and finish work at 2.30 in the afternoon!

Just in from work Derek and reply sent via PM!

I'll probably list this on ebay, but wondered if anyone here might be interested beforehand? It's an example of Spink 2803 "Group G (under Parliament) seventh bust, type 4.6 Shorter slim better proportioned bust (Sharp H2/2), mm sceptre." (Yeah, the H1/1 in the title is a typo) This privy mark dates the coin post February 1647 and the bust style is the penultimate of the Parliamentary issue in Charles' name. As Michael Sharp mentions in his article, "nice strikings of the second [this one] and third bust are unfortunately very difficult to obtain .." As often the case, this coin was struck on an uneven flan which was thinner in the middle than at the edges, leading to a very crisp legend but weakness to the King's face and the corresponding area to the shield on the reverse. The weight however is full at 6.1g (94gr for traditionalists!). The coin has a dark old tone and you can see die polishing marks to the obverse field. I believe it is therefore pretty much as struck, showing only very minimal cabinet friction to the highest points of the rim. The last edition of Spink I have (2006) gives guide prices of £65 in F and £250 in VF. The coin has been in my collection for seven years and comes with my ticket. I was thinking £170 which would include Special Delivery (insured, next day) post to UK addresses. Anyone overseas? Contact me and I'll work out postage, though insurance/tracking options might be limited. More pics can be emailed if anyone is interested.

The only coins I've ever done this to were a 19th century French cent found on the beach and a penny picked up in change that I thought had verd but seemed to have been painted green (!) While the oil cleaned both, the French coin came up quite pink. I imagine that the mild acidity of the oil gradually disolves away the dirt, but also imagine that if it can eat into verdegris, it will effect the surface of the coin. There's no way as far as I know to make the treatment specific to one part and not another. Patina, lustre, whatever are all surface effects. I can't see that anything that will touch verd (as opposed to simply washing it loose) won't also effect that outer layer of oxidation on a coin, which is of course what gives it its appearance. Over the years I've tried a few different ways to change the appearance of coins, from cleaning to trying to accelerate the oxidation process to take the overly shiny edge off a 'museum cleaned' silver coin. None have been 100% succesful I'm afraid. The few spots of verdegris (on valuble silver coins) I have accepted I'm just going to have to leave alone.

But surely, with a bit of brasso, they could all have full lustre. No?

Thanks! It's Spink 2803 (Sharp H2/2) Despite the double striking of the legend it does look quite crisp, so here's hoping.

Sadly Dad had an enthusiasm for 50p pieces with the hands on, so I only got face value! The few pieces of silver I sold to Chris a while back. As to the purchase, when we got back from the jewellers, Wifey threw a wobbly about me selling off the family , er .. gold. So .. I've just ordered the coin. I'll be paying for it with my next five years' birthday and Christmas prezzies! Hopefully it's still available .. and when it arrives I'm as pleased as I hope to be! Dealer's pic: