2 curious questions for my inquisitive mind

[Rob 3,002]

I won't liken it exactly but a car or motorbikes history helps.

When I sold a motorbike to a dealer the eventual new owner got in touch with me and I could add a bit of history(the dealer had lost!!! a load of receipts for replacement small end bearings of which it ate)...I believe he moved it on.

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

Rob..I'm sure the TPG's would love the info on provenance and pay you well.

As Colin Cooke once said to me when I was bemoaning my coming second yet again on a choice piece - 'You aren't doing anything wrong chasing ex Carter pieces (Dr. E C Carter colln bt Baldwin 1950) because he only ever collected quality, the problem is just that your pockets aren't deep enough!' Any piece that has historically been known as the finest, or one of the finest, will not lose that label easily. Its history will help it, both value wise and its desirability when the time comes to sell.

As for the TPGs - not enough space on the label. They don't always get the attribution right and slabs are a pain full stop because there isn't anywhere to keep the old tickets. Once a coin gets slabbed, the chances of any tickets following the coin are greatly reduced and so the provenance then depends on the TPG determined one, which if historical may or may not be correct. Slabs are aimed at a market where the number is more important than the provenance. If Montagu or Murdoch are irrelevant and not worth mentioning, then lesser provenances such as Ryan or Morrieson stand no chance of being included. The only old ones they are consistent in adding are Norweb, Boulton and occasionally Lockett and Lingford. Apart from that it is a question of pandering to modern collectors and putting their names on the slab. I saw a coin the other day that I knew was ex Brand and Norweb, but which is now anonymously slabbed as a nice coin. Norweb's coins came in the 2x2 envelopes with the distinctive spider design that she used to keep them in. Useful info like the weight was also included. That will now be lost.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 373]

As we've discussed before Rob, sadly even without the slabs, people seem very casual about tickets. And while they are not essential, they are both historically interesting and save time when you want to know a bit more about provenance. I wish even if people don't use them themselves they would at least pass on the ones that come with a coin.

(I also wish auction houses wouldn't use square tickets, but at least they are better than nothing!)

[Colin G. 147]

As we've discussed before Rob, sadly even without the slabs, people seem very casual about tickets. And while they are not essential, they are both historically interesting and save time when you want to know a bit more about provenance. I wish even if people don't use them themselves they would at least pass on the ones that come with a coin.

(I also wish auction houses wouldn't use square tickets, but at least they are better than nothing!)

I also wish they would keep the tickets with the coin in question on bulk lots

[Gary D 76]

As we've discussed before Rob, sadly even without the slabs, people seem very casual about tickets. And while they are not essential, they are both historically interesting and save time when you want to know a bit more about provenance. I wish even if people don't use them themselves they would at least pass on the ones that come with a coin.

(I also wish auction houses wouldn't use square tickets, but at least they are better than nothing!)

I also wish they would keep the tickets with the coin in question on bulk lots

Also auction houses won't always tell you who the seller is. When I bought my 1935 incuse proof crown I asked at the time but they were not forthcoming.

[Peckris 579]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

My thoughts exactly. As for 'several hundreds', I think that would only apply to rare or particularly good examples. I can think of any number of coins priced in hundreds where provenance would make little impression. However, where it is 'thousands' that is a different matter. I've never spent four figures on a coin, and I'm not sure even if my most valuable specimen would get there. The number of collectors spending those kind of sums must be pretty small, and I would expect many of them to know each other anyway.

[Peter 615]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

My thoughts exactly. As for 'several hundreds', I think that would only apply to rare or particularly good examples. I can think of any number of coins priced in hundreds where provenance would make little impression. However, where it is 'thousands' that is a different matter. I've never spent four figures on a coin, and I'm not sure even if my most valuable specimen would get there. The number of collectors spending those kind of sums must be pretty small, and I would expect many of them to know each other anyway.

I'm sure Rob didn't know the Earl of Pembroke or he has been lying about his age.ALL the Cooke collections have been sold with the name adding a premium...look at what punters were willing to pay for the modern BU copper....how many of these will end up on Ebay and sell for a few pence when the collector dies and the family don't realise.

When the Colin Cooke collection of 1/4d's was sold they were listed (where possible)with their provenance...and yes I spent £100's not £1000's.

I'm certainly not a big player but I think the £1000+ collectors are numerous...don't forget the coin market is more global than ever and US collectors pay huge premiums for 1 extra grade on a coin...let alone an Earl of Pembroke coin.

[Rob 3,002]

My thoughts exactly. As for 'several hundreds', I think that would only apply to rare or particularly good examples. I can think of any number of coins priced in hundreds where provenance would make little impression. However, where it is 'thousands' that is a different matter. I've never spent four figures on a coin, and I'm not sure even if my most valuable specimen would get there. The number of collectors spending those kind of sums must be pretty small, and I would expect many of them to know each other anyway.

For what it's worth, the first 100 lots at Tuesday's St. James's were a reasonable selection of coins. They were bought by a total of 45 individuals with 12 lots passed. 15 buyers didn't reach the £1000 incl. premium, though cumulatively the other 30 did. The highest hammer price for any lot was £150K (+24% prem.) and the most lots won by a single bidder was 6, with three buyers represented. So there was a fairly broad selection of bidders as the results show. If they were all collectors that bought then the number can be said to be small, but if they were dealers buying on commission, or for stock, then the collector base would be several multiples of the number of lots won. It's quite a healthy market out there at the moment for quality, but the sting in the tail is the number of passes for the indifferent or problem coins. 12% is quite a high pass rate.

[Rob 3,002]

I'm sure Rob didn't know the Earl of Pembroke or he has been lying about his age.ALL the Cooke collections have been sold with the name adding a premium...look at what punters were willing to pay for the modern BU copper....how many of these will end up on Ebay and sell for a few pence when the collector dies and the family don't realise.

When the Colin Cooke collection of 1/4d's was sold they were listed (where possible)with their provenance...and yes I spent £100's not £1000's.

I'm certainly not a big player but I think the £1000+ collectors are numerous...don't forget the coin market is more global than ever and US collectors pay huge premiums for 1 extra grade on a coin...let alone an Earl of Pembroke coin.

It's not that people collect coins of a certain value only, but that every series has its key date(s) where demand always outstrips supply. Every denomination, every reign, hammered, milled, they all have their very expensive items that only a few people can ever own, irrespective of whether they can afford them. If a date run costs a few hundred pounds each, but one date has a 1 in front of the usual price, then that is what you will pay.

It is quite noticeable that there has always been a certain cut off price which seems to limit the hammer price for casual purchases. 2 or 3 years ago it was about £3000-3500, but a year ago ran up to £4000-4500. Below this there is a lot of competition as if it was coming out of general expenses, but above this things are a bit more exclusive.

[Peter 615]

Once you've filled your ISA allowance 0.0025% interest is available for savings...ummm 5k earns you £12.50 gross

Why not treat yourself to that coin you've always wanted.As long as the homework is done and a decent buy follows...why not.

[Peckris 579]

Once you've filled your ISA allowance 0.0025% interest is available for savings...ummm 5k earns you £12.50 gross

Why not treat yourself to that coin you've always wanted.As long as the homework is done and a decent buy follows...why not.

ROFL. What makes you think we all can even FILL our ISA allowance, or that there is anything left worth writing home about once we have!

[Peckris 579]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

I know you're right. But I think it's important to distinguish between prestige and provenance. A coin from a prestigious sale such as Norweb or Bamford will carry a premium just for that alone, and the better the coin is, and the longer it can be linked to those sales, the better for its future. But, such sales also carry a proportion of relatively mediocre coins - break the link and suddenly those are cast adrift.

However provenance is generally irrelevant to mediocre stuff, and I believe that Rob is interested in tracing back the history of important pieces? For example, how much do we know about the previous life of coins in Norweb and Bamford etc? This is an area I know nothing about, so maybe Rob could enlighten us - is there already provenance for the best coins in important sales, or not, or only some? Does the existence of provenance even for those sales add much to the value-added premium? I'd love to know.

[Rob 3,002]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

I know you're right. But I think it's important to distinguish between prestige and provenance. A coin from a prestigious sale such as Norweb or Bamford will carry a premium just for that alone, and the better the coin is, and the longer it can be linked to those sales, the better for its future. But, such sales also carry a proportion of relatively mediocre coins - break the link and suddenly those are cast adrift.

However provenance is generally irrelevant to mediocre stuff, and I believe that Rob is interested in tracing back the history of important pieces? For example, how much do we know about the previous life of coins in Norweb and Bamford etc? This is an area I know nothing about, so maybe Rob could enlighten us - is there already provenance for the best coins in important sales, or not, or only some? Does the existence of provenance even for those sales add much to the value-added premium? I'd love to know.

Norweb is one of the better catalogued sales and she obtained many of her coins from Brand who bought heavily through Spink from ca.1912 until his demise in 1926. She also bought her British coins mostly via Spink and Baldwin which means there may not be any provenance from these sources if the coins were obtained from individuals as opposed to sales. Bamford is also traceable to some extent because he bought in person at some sales and so if you have an annotated catalogue with buyers named at the sale, he will feature. The problem coins are those which were bought 50 years ago or more because so many sales weren't illustrated and at this point it relies on tickets or the rare catalogue image. Provenance unquestionably does add some value, though it tends to be variable. I listed half a dozen prices for similar items after June's Spink sale and it appeared that the Lockett provenance was adding about £200 to the price of a £300-400 coin. Slightly lesser ones in both grade and quality weren't selling if they had faults.

The best coins invariably have some sort of provenance, but this can be lost if not noted at the last sale as happened recently when a fine sovereign went from no provenance back to having a lengthy one starting in the 1800s. It had previously been recorded, but was dropped in a recent sale and so potentially lost. I know this is covering old ground, but my 1601 portcullis halfpenny had a provenance of Foster and Nicholson when I bought it last year for just over £3100. As some may remember, that list has now been extended to 18 sales. The sister piece which is the pledge halfpenny that was in Spink's June sale had a comparable estimate to my coin a year before. The number available of both types appears to be 4 and so the price should be similar. The provenance of Parsons on its own for the latter piece is good but not special in isolation, but as part of the 10 sale provenance that I established prior to the sale, it went from a coin that we knew where it was prior to 1954, to a coin that we knew where it had been since at least the early 1700s including many big collections over the years such as Montagu and Murdoch etc. This made it a £4000-4500 coin and I increased my bid accordingly, though a man with deeper pockets was always going to get it. I think a reasonable estimate is an uplift of 30% with a decent provenance.

For those that are unaware, Montagu was the first sale where there was extensive illustration of various lots. That in itself was significant. Montagu set out to acquire a comprehensive collection in top grade. To this end he made his fortune as a lawyer and then went about buying in complete collections as they became available alongside routine auction purchases. He died aged 51 by which time he had accomplished more than most could ever hope to achieve. The star lot in his sale was the Juxon Medal given by Charles I to Abp. Juxon when he was on the scaffold prior to his execution. At the sale in 1896, this medal realised £770 - a huge sum and was bought by the British Museum. It was Montagu's ability to acquire the choicest, rarest pieces that made his collection special. I know that the few illustrated pieces I have that were formerly in the Montagu cabinet are ones that I would have immense difficulty bringing myself to sell simply on quality grounds. If I don't want these pieces, I might as well stop collecting. Murdoch aspired to a Montagu-like collection, but was always playing catch up. He bought extensively at the Montagu sales, but as individual lots fighting all-comers it would always be an uphill struggle. He died a few years later and the collection was sold in 1903-4. Again, the quality of the lots was apparent from the catalogues.

Although the superb items seen in the early catalogues were available then, many no longer are, having been acquired by museums and effectively protected from public viewing. It therefore falls to the slightly lesser items that remain available to act as the desirable objects of today in many instances. This is where tickets are invaluable because a handwritten note is much more helpful than a note that X bought this coin but it isn't illustrated. That is why I bought a lot on ebay last year - a Henry VI half groat, but the ticket was obviously that of Webb (Soth. 1894). £65 for a halfgroat in any condition with a ticket that could be ascribed to Webb was a no brainer and I hit the BIN button with only a cursory glance at the coin i.e. the ticket was worth the £65 and the coin (which was about VF) a bonus. A couple of halfpennies bought out the circular about 6 years ago were given as ex Clonterbrook Trust. Fine, but by extension it means they were ex Lockett (Clonterbrook was the family trust), and the Lockett catalogue which gave the source as Longbottom also conveniently left out the presence of the Webb ticket which meant that it went from a 1974 sale to an 1894, 1934 and 1958 sale in addition. Happy days.

I guess it is horses for courses. Your average pleb on ebay wouldn't know what a ticket meant, but in a proper auction it adds corroborative evidence to the provenance if given, and if not given at all provides the buyer with a bonus.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 373]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

I know you're right. But I think it's important to distinguish between prestige and provenance. A coin from a prestigious sale such as Norweb or Bamford will carry a premium just for that alone, and the better the coin is, and the longer it can be linked to those sales, the better for its future. But, such sales also carry a proportion of relatively mediocre coins - break the link and suddenly those are cast adrift.

However provenance is generally irrelevant to mediocre stuff,

Oh, in price terms, that's quite likely the case. However I have coins owned by Shuttlewood, Osborne and more recently, Morris. None of these coins are spectacular (OK, one is interesting) but I would still be very interested to know where they bought them and who owned them before. These aren't Brookers or Locketts but they are still serious collectors of Charles I coins. For all I know one of my coins could have been a minor item that passed through the hands of a well known collector, but without very serious research I have no way of knowing. Osborne for example is a pig of a sale to unravel; quite a few multiple lots and very few photos.

Provenance will make pretty much no difference to the eventual sale price of my coins. But I'd still rather like to know!

Edited September 30, 2011 by TomGoodheart

[Rob 3,002]

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

I know you're right. But I think it's important to distinguish between prestige and provenance. A coin from a prestigious sale such as Norweb or Bamford will carry a premium just for that alone, and the better the coin is, and the longer it can be linked to those sales, the better for its future. But, such sales also carry a proportion of relatively mediocre coins - break the link and suddenly those are cast adrift.

However provenance is generally irrelevant to mediocre stuff,

Oh, in price terms, that's quite likely the case. However I have coins owned by Shuttlewood, Osborne and more recently, Morris. None of these coins are spectacular (OK, one is interesting) but I would still be very interested to know where they bought them and who owned them before. These aren't Brookers or Locketts but they are still serious collectors of Charles I coins. For all I know one of my coins could have been a minor item that passed through the hands of a well known collector, but without very serious research I have no way of knowing. But I'd rather like to!

Shuttlewood threw his tickets away, which was unhelpful. Not sure about Osborne, but Morris's were acknowledged on Lloyd's tickets as well as including his own with the coin. Which coins are we talking about? Might be able to help.

[azda 973]

This thread has taken over the boards lol. I was reading the reply Rob left regarding prices at St James auction, so i have yet another curious question (it is personal so it's up to you if you want to answer or not)

Whats the most anyone here has paid for a coin. I've personally paid 1500 and was sweating, so i can't imagine what someone who's paid the 150K Rob earlier mention must be feeling, think i'd need a bottle of vallium (for the wife after i pick her up off the floor)

BTW, i love the detailed answers given by members on the forum, it makes this forum worthwhile looking at.

Edited September 30, 2011 by azda

[Rob 3,002]

This thread has taken over the boards lol. I was reading the reply Rob left regarding prices at St James auction, so i have yet another curious question (it is personal so it's up to you if you want to answer or not)

Whats the most anyone here has paid for a coin. I've personally paid 1500 and was sweating, so i can't imagine what someone who's paid the 150K Rob earlier mention must be feeling, think i'd need a bottle of vallium (for the wife after i pick her up off the floor)

BTW, i love the detailed answers given by members on the forum, it makes this forum worthwhile looking at.

Comfortable I would assume. The big money paid for the large hammered gold recently has been between a couple who sold their business for a rumoured £300m and A.N.Other. Chances are they were involved this time unless they bought one of the DNW pieces. The odd £100K here and there is fairly inconsequential.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Rob

[azda 973]

It must be amazing when money is no object and buy exactly what you want (coin wise) I don't know where i'd start if i had that sort of money At 300 Million, it must have been a decent business

[Rob 3,002]

It must be amazing when money is no object and buy exactly what you want (coin wise) I don't know where i'd start if i had that sort of money At 300 Million, it must have been a decent business

I do.

[declanwmagee 122]

Whats the most anyone here has paid for a coin.

erm...£68...for a 1903 halfcrown.

I suppose that makes me an average pleb on eBay

[davidrj 194]

Whats the most anyone here has paid for a coin.

$61 plus postage for my 1918KN penny

Underbidder on quite few for more

David

[TomGoodheart 373]

Shuttlewood threw his tickets away, which was unhelpful. Not sure about Osborne, but Morris's were acknowledged on Lloyd's tickets as well as including his own with the coin. Which coins are we talking about? Might be able to help.

Thanks Rob. The problem is that pretty much all my coins (apart from the ebay purchases) are from dealers or auction houses who didn't have or pass on details. Very few are particularly striking so unlikely to be the highlight of a major collection. The 'simplest' solution is when I recognise a coin in an earlier sale, but that depends on photos. It was quite time consuming for me to go through the catalogues, SNCs an dealers' lists I have to find a few, but for any others it'd be searching blind since for the most part I have no clues at all to go on.

For example, this. Quite an acceptable coin with old tone that suggests it has been in collections for a few years but Goldberg's don't mention any previous owners. Likely the details were lost when it was PCGS graded. It came unslabbed from Neil Paisley.

Unless I find a photo from an earlier catalogue or sale, I doubt I'd spot it from a description. Assuming there even was one, that is!

[TomGoodheart 373]

Whats the most anyone here has paid for a coin.

£1882 (inc buyer's premium) nearly six years ago.

And in case anyone thinks I'm in Rob's league, the next highest I've paid is less than a third of that.

[Peckris 579]

Thanks Rob and Tom for your very full replies - it's a real deep sea of a topic! I wish I could afford pieces where provenance was even an issue.

As for the highest amount spent, all I'm saying is that I have a few coins that if I was buying now, would set me back several hundreds. However Dave's €1500 beats me hands down!

[Rob 3,002]

For example, this. Quite an acceptable coin with old tone that suggests it has been in collections for a few years but Goldberg's don't mention any previous owners. Likely the details were lost when it was PCGS graded. It came unslabbed from Neil Paisley.

Unless I find a photo from an earlier catalogue or sale, I doubt I'd spot it from a description. Assuming there even was one, that is!

I'll keep my eyes open, but think you might be struggling. Scarce, yes, but not really rare and premium quality no, so less chance of an image.

[Rob 3,002]

Thanks Rob and Tom for your very full replies - it's a real deep sea of a topic! I wish I could afford pieces where provenance was even an issue.

As for the highest amount spent, all I'm saying is that I have a few coins that if I was buying now, would set me back several hundreds. However Dave's €1500 beats me hands down!

The thing about a provenance is that unless you paid silly money in the first place, a bit of time spent establishing the provenance is a one way ticket. At worst you have a coin worth the same as it was before, but with the right names attached it will only add value. No provenance has ever detracted from a coin's value.