Coin Collections seized in Germany

[Hussulo 6]

This from the Moneta-L listserve:

German numismatists ring the alarm bells

German cultural authorities have begun searching private homes and seizing

entire collections of antique coins, if provenance of only a few coins in

the collection is not documented. These invasions are being conducted

under the new German laws on importation of cultural property. Coins being

subjected to such scrutiny are not restricted to ancient coins presumed to

have been excavated - medieval and antique modern coins are also subject

to the same measures. In one case, a pensioner from the Thuringian

Eisenberg recently acquired four old coins on an Internet auction site.

Shortly afterwards his house was searched, ending with seizure of his

entire collection. Collectors are understandably alarmed, because very few

coins in their collections have provenances that will satisfy the new

laws. When a collection becomes suspect only a short time is being allowed

to prove licit origin before the collection is seized, and then even if

the suspicion is unfounded, it is very difficult to recover the

collection.

Not only coins, but all "cultural objects" more than 100 years old are

subject to these new cultural laws, leading to fears that stamp

collections, collections of graphic arts and antique jewelry may also be

targeted. The list of "cultural objects" in the 1970 UNESCO Convention is

very extensive, including such common things as coins, postage stamps,

photographs and printed books.

The new laws on importation of cultural property became effective in

September 2008, after the German government finally gave in to demands

that importation of unprovenanced coins and other artifacts should be

prevented, because archaeologists allege that looting of archaeological

sites is driven by the collecting market. This allegation is unproven - no

verifiable, factual evidence has yet been presented to support it.

There is however significant evidence that looting would continue unabated

even if collecting could be prevented in Europe and other areas where

cultural property laws are respected. Meanwhile German coin collectors now

feel completely insecure, like criminals suspected of breaking the law.

According to Ulf Draeger - head of the Moritzburg Landesmünzkabinetts and

chairman of the German Society of Medallic Arts - the entry into force of

these new laws, despite their laudable intentions, has led to significant

collateral damage in only a short time. His conclusion: "If this situation

continues, then we can pack up."

The German Numismatic Association is trying to stem the tide somewhat and there is a summary in English of their statement at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/message/3348

For the original articles in German see

http://www.numismatische-gesellschaft.de/

http://tinyurl.com/dfc7sp

http://tinyurl.com/bc8pqz

[Hussulo 6]

http://www.fr-online.de/frankfurt_und_hess...n-Kaempfer.html

According to the article under (new?) German law any coin or stamp of 100 years old is supposed to have provenance going back to when it was acquired. If not police can search the home and confiscate complete collections.

and it is also reported that:

Due to the above law by the German Govt. regarding antiquities , Ebay Germany cancelled most or all auctions by German sellers involving ancient coins. This apparently happened over this past weekend.

[Hussulo 6]

Chris have you heard of any of this?

Is it true?

Is it over dramaticised?

[Chris Perkins 223]

No I've not heard this, where's Stechlin????

It does sound a bit alarmist. If it's in any way true I may have to hide some things!

[Stechlin 0]

No I've not heard this, where's Stechlin????

It does sound a bit alarmist. If it's in any way true I may have to hide some things!

Puh, thats a difficult thing and I'm afraid my answer is not very helpful.

Well, there is a UNESCO treaty dating from 1970. You can find the text of this treaty in English language under:

http://frei.bundesgesetzblatt.de/pdf/bgbl2/bgbl207s0626.pdf

All partners of this treaty have declared their duty to return valuable culture assets, which had brought from one treaty state to another treaty state against the law, back to state of origin. This treaty was very important especially for Germany, if you look at all the cultural assets, that has been robbed by Nazis during World War II and the other way round after Germany has lost this war. This treaty has to be transferred in national law, but Germany refused to do so for 35 years for political reasons. But now Germany has changed its mind and made a new law, called the "Kulturgüterrückgabegesetzâ€. In German language:

http://www.justlaw.de/gesetze/Kulturgueter...ltGueRueckG.htm

This is German law since February 2008. Easily said, this law enables foreign countries to claim the restitution of their stolen or robbed valuable cultural assets, if those items are located in Germany now.

Private Owners have to hand over these items to the German authorities. In general, they have the right to claim a compensation (of course not, if they knew, that the item was stolen before or if they are thiefs themselves).

Speculations: It might have taken some time from February 2008 up to date, until the several federal states have organized their authorities to start searching for such items. But now they seem to do it with the typical german closeness. The thing that whole collections are being confiscated has perhaps the reason, that the members of staff don’t have any idea whether a special coin is one of those to return or not. So they take the whole collection and will return the “uncritical†items after having checked them from experts to the owner. I’m afraid they are allowed to do so.

I don’t think that collectors of especially UK coins are much involved in this game because I don’t think that many stolen British coins are located in Germany. Luckily the Nazis could not manage to send ground troops in the UK (as far as I know).

I can`t guarantee for the correctness of everything I wrote above, but I hope its close to the truth.

Holger (for Chris: Stechlin)

[Chris Perkins 223]

I suspected it was something that had been sensationalised to make it sound more drastic than it is, as is often the case. There probably is a real risk for expensive ancient items with a dubious past, but I shouldn't imagine they will be going door to door or even to known collectors. I'd like to hear details about exactly what has been seized so far and from where it comes. Also if another country has to point the German authorities to a suspicious person before they do anything.

I'm off to England tomorrow for about a week. I'll make an effort to understand this more when I get back.

[Hussulo 6]

http://coinarchaeology.blogspot.com/2009/0...uities-and.html

[TomGoodheart 373]

Mmmm .. I was under the impression that it was the UNESCO agreement on the treatment of antiquities that is the problem. See here for a rant UNIDROIT Effectively making the assumption that unless an antiquity could be shown ot have been in collectors' hands for some time it could be assumed to have been obtained illegally.

What concerns me is that, of the coins I own, many of which were obtained from reputable dealers whose names you would all be familiar with, very few have details of previous owners. Whenever I ask 'do you have an old collector's ticket' or 'can you tell me where this coin is from' I'm often told that the coin was bought at a show / as part of a lot and that no ticket exists.

Worse, I've seen coins I have owned for sale on Ebay with 'I don't know much about this coin' descriptions. When I have emailed the seller to tell them that all the information (Spink reference, provenance, dates of purchase) are on the ticket I supplied to the purchaser they have no idea what I'm talking about.

If people simply don't pass on tickets or details to purchasers none of us will have a leg to stand on should the police knock on our doors demanding to know where our coins were found and when and how long they have been in private hands.

[Rob 3,002]

If people simply don't pass on tickets or details to purchasers none of us will have a leg to stand on should the police knock on our doors demanding to know where our coins were found and when and how long they have been in private hands.

Which should be good news for collectors of higher grade or rare pieces with a decent provenance traceable from illustrated sales catalogues over the past 100 years or so.

[TomGoodheart 373]

If people simply don't pass on tickets or details to purchasers none of us will have a leg to stand on should the police knock on our doors demanding to know where our coins were found and when and how long they have been in private hands.

Which should be good news for collectors of higher grade or rare pieces with a decent provenance traceable from illustrated sales catalogues over the past 100 years or so.

But less so for those of us with modest pockets who pick up coins from antique shops, Ebay and other places where people simply haven't kept (or don't know) the provenance of a coin.

I think I have a couple of recent hoard coins through auction, a dozen I can trace back beyond whoever sold me the coin to a dealer such as Stephen Mitchell or another auction house, a handful from well known collectors (including one coin I can track back to the 1950's). But for the most part, all I have is the invoice from the dealer that sold me the coin or simply a printout of the Ebay listing.

I buy in good faith and using a modicum of common sense, as I suspect we all do. But that might not be much defence in a court of law. Just sayin!

[coin watch 1]

Oh-No Mr Hussulo, I so wish that you did not bring this to anyones attention, especially here in the UK.

Just think about it, our good old friend Gordon Brown might be sitting at home right now reading this and thinking what a good idea this actually is {hhmm, yes, seize everyones collections and sell them on ebay, what a great idea and it might just save my neck and cover up this fine financial mess i`ve managed to create}.

Thats it i`m leaving the country , thats after i`ve dropped of my collection to Downing st

[Geordie582 18]

??

And regarding the spat between archaeologists and numismatist, isn't it like religion? I'm right and you're wrong! The archaeological field have always looked down on us and always will while using the detectorist when it suites them!

Edited February 27, 2009 by Geordie582

[josie 8]

Just an opinion.

Either Im alarmed or confused.

few months ago I think ,a collection of art work was sold,still fetching even in recession and what other say a physical thing.

It is not nickel and dimes for some coins in high grade and good history is worth more,more likely a national treasure.

National treasure, some collection or artifact in the museum those that maybe a lesser value or historical importance didnt even have catalog, in the museum for lack of staff and funding just an opinion.

And other item are sold to those who can afford and will take care of it for whatever reason they have.

some goes to the museum if they can outbid other private collector.

Isnt it the problem is how to encourage younger generation for coin collecting and history,that is in the news in the past and it is not Germany.

What are thier plans why suddenly they are interested in confiscating artifact?

confiscation not fees or penalty in forms of money,just a opinion.