Adjustment lines or not?

[Guest Abba]

You can be whoever you like without registering!

stuart (Coinery)

[Guest Rob]

Even Rob...now that's cool! ?

Stuart (Coinery)

[Paulus 1,942]

13 minutes ago, Rob said:

I'm keeping mum, as I have nothing meaningless to say.

Very wise! 3 different Coinery user names now! If it helps , the weight of my coin is exactly 6.0 g

Edited October 6, 2016 by Paulus

[Paulus 1,942]

So all those recent comments are yours Stu? OK! Definitely in the pre-strike camp myself, but still open to suggestions!

[Coinery 926]

Not doubting the authenticity, Paul, just answering your question about the origin of the lines! Whilst there is no explanation for it, I think they are post mint, as are the others! How they came to be across SO many coins I have no idea. ?

[Coinery 926]

Yes, all my comments! ?

[Paulus 1,942]

Just now, Coinery said:

Not doubting the authenticity, Paul, just answering your question about the origin of the lines! Whilst there is no explanation for it, I think they are post mint, as are the others! How they came to be across SO many coins I have no idea. ?

I have no doubt as to authenticity either, I don't think that has been raised! And yes the topic is just about the lines, as Rob points out they are prevelant on Briot coins

 

[Paulus 1,942]

5 minutes ago, Coinery said:

Not doubting the authenticity, Paul, just answering your question about the origin of the lines! Whilst there is no explanation for it, I think they are post mint, as are the others! How they came to be across SO many coins I have no idea. ?

Post Mint you think, I'm very surprised! Given the frequency of examples of this, logic suggests lines created at the mint by the machinery, or to reduce the weight of the blanks, I would have thought

Edited October 6, 2016 by Paulus

[Coinery 926]

Bit odd that people can randomly post without so much as a registration, though! Not sure of the wisdom of that, or of its potential to destabilise some hard-won and sensitive relationships on here? Hey ho!

[Coinery 926]

4 minutes ago, Paulus said:

I have no doubt as to authenticity either, I don't think that has been raised!

 

You brought the weight into it which made me think you may have thought I was doubting authenticity? ☺️

[Paulus 1,942]

2 minutes ago, Coinery said:

Bit odd that people can randomly post without so much as a registration, though! Not sure of the wisdom of that, or of its potential to destabilise some hard-won and sensitive relationships on here? Hey ho!

We maybe don't use the Members Only section as much as we should

[Paulus 1,942]

Just now, Coinery said:

You brought the weight into it which made me think you may have thought I was doubting authenticity? ☺️

No that was in response to Rob's point on weight reduction

[Coinery 926]

4 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Post Mint you think, I'm very surprised!

Only for the reasons I raised...if they were perfectly straight on the flan pre-strike, would they really be so straight post-strike? If they happened during the striking process, and the marks were left on a fully struck up coin, wouldn't wear, as can be seen on the coin, infill and smooth over at least some of the lines? If you look at the lettering on any coin, even 20thC coins, wear spreads the metal out!

[Paulus 1,942]

Interesting debate this! One question then is if post-strike, why? And there are many other examples, so not unique to this coin. I guess I am just fascinated by the 17th century, always have been!

[Coinery 926]

28 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Very wise! 3 different Coinery user names now! If it helps , the weight of my coin is exactly 6.0 g

6g ?

[Paulus 1,942]

2 minutes ago, Coinery said:

6g ?

Have you been at the cider Stu lol?

[Coinery 926]

2 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Have you been at the cider Stu lol?

No, not at all, you mentioned the weight...anyway, got to go, take it easy out there! ?

[Paulus 1,942]

Just now, Coinery said:

No, not at all, you mentioned the weight...anyway, got to go, take it easy out there! ?

You too mate, visit more often!

[Colin G. 147]

I think I could be in the adjustment camp, and my reasoning would be:

Where coins of the early milled period are struck metal flow tends to be most obvious towards the edge of the coin, and in many cases this is visible by deformation of the legend. This is not present on this coin, perhaps whilst it is a feature of pressed coins it may be something that seems to occur as the process advanced technologically. 

The marks that remain may just be a small portion of the lines that were originally present on the blank prior to striking, because they are all visible in areas of high relief. Therefore they could have been substantially more apparent at the time of striking on an adjusted blank, but have closed up and reduced as a result of being struck.

As Rob states I have no doubt there was a commitment to a more accurate system of production using this method and therefore I would have thought accurate results would be essential and if that meant slightly adjusting a blank prior to striking I can see the reasoning for that to occur. The comments about the direction of the marks rules out something linked to the machinery, and the weight comments would also seem to indicate it is a feature linked with those coins that were close to the upper weight threshold.

[Guest Stuart]

You would expect at least some closure (coming together) of the two edges of the 'groove' where it's squeezed into the deeper features of the die, though, wouldn't you? Being devil's advocate an' all!

Also, with such a wonderful new design and method of producing coins, would they really be up for defacing them in such a way? Again playing DA, wouldn't it be more logical to remove any surplus weight from the edge? It's obviously a teeny-tiny amount if it can be adjusted with a 'scrape'?

The good news is this is easily replicable! We just need to create some grooved blanks and press them into a die to see the affect on the lines. If they remain perfectly straight and complete, I'll concede!  

Gosh, who was it now that was making that penny from his own dies, arctic something I think, he'd have the kit to hand to try it out? Maybe Dave Grunal could try it from a hammered perspective?

Oh, and hi, Colin, hope you're well?

[Guest Stuart]

I do think there is a little more to it!

http://www.johnnewmancoins.com/charles-briots-second-milled-issue-sixpence-s2860-p-503.html

also, looking at the attached image, I genuinely can't imagine these deep lines would maintain their integrity and exactness after the pressures of milling...personally!

 

[Rob 3,002]

29 minutes ago, Guest Stuart said:

You would expect at least some closure (coming together) of the two edges of the 'groove' where it's squeezed into the deeper features of the die, though, wouldn't you? Being devil's advocate an' all!

Also, with such a wonderful new design and method of producing coins, would they really be up for defacing them in such a way? Again playing DA, wouldn't it be more logical to remove any surplus weight from the edge? It's obviously a teeny-tiny amount if it can be adjusted with a 'scrape'?

The good news is this is easily replicable! We just need to create some grooved blanks and press them into a die to see the affect on the lines. If they remain perfectly straight and complete, I'll concede!  

Gosh, who was it now that was making that penny from his own dies, arctic something I think, he'd have the kit to hand to try it out? Maybe Dave Grunal could try it from a hammered perspective?

Oh, and hi, Colin, hope you're well?

That's a moot point. If the tool had bevelled sides then it would tend to throw the metal surfaces outwards on scraping. If the metal was removed to leave perpendicular sides to the scrape, then striking would lead to the groove being filled in at the surface as it folded over on striking. Somewhere in the middle, the two extremes would cancel each other out. Once the coin is worn, it would result in metal removal at the highest points, unhelpfully removing the evidence for either. IMO the best info is therefore likely to show where the lines are away from the highest points, but this is also where the relief will be lowest.

Despite the logic of removing excess weight before striking, I still think it is post strike as the lines rarely cover the whole diameter which you would expect if scraped across an abrasive surface.

[azda 973]

These 2 i bought from DNW in their NOV 215 sale lot 244 which were subsequently stolen by the delivery service on my end, both had CHISTO for CHRISTO error, one with adjustment marks and the other not

[Paulus 1,942]

4 minutes ago, azda said:

These 2 i bought from DNW in their NOV 215 sale lot 244 which were subsequently stolen by the delivery service on my end, both had CHISTO for CHRISTO error, one with adjustment marks and the other not

 

Did you get compensation for this theft in the end Dave?

[azda 973]

Just now, Paulus said:

Did you get compensation for this theft in the end Dave?

After 3 months of waiting yes, but DNW also made an error and had packed someone else coin into my packet, so they had 2 people to compensate. I just left it as a credit with DNW against future purchases, they then said they'd only send with fedex in future