[TomGoodheart]

And what's the name of this *ahem* recommended dealer?

[azda]

TomGoodheart, on 28 July 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

And what's the name of this *ahem* recommended dealer?

Unfortunately i'd rather not say Tom, due to the fact that in Germany they have the American mentality where they will sue if you look at them the wrong way. Here's one scenario for you, they now have lawyers who scour ebay for anyone who's used someone elses pictures or text in their ebay listing. There was a case when someone had resold something but used the previous ebay text and pix, he was sucessfully sued for 700 euros. Thats the downside of living in Germany unfortunately

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Peckris, on 27 July 2010 - 09:51 PM, said:

Wonder if it's a lurker of this forum, and read this thread?

We had a board of this nature at work once and someone calculated that for every contributor, there were 4 non posting lurkers.

[1949threepence]

azda, on 28 July 2010 - 11:48 AM, said:

argentumandcoins, on 28 July 2010 - 10:47 AM, said:

A hard one to call...

I have made mistakes in the past, as happens when dealing online, on ebay and with visits to my premises.
I did sell a high value shilling twice by selling it to a caller and not clearing it from my website availability, so yes, mistakes do happen.

Is it likely that a German dealer would use this forum? You know him Dave, does he have any interest in or a vast stock of GB coins?

I think you have already been told several times but..... say nowt about owt until you have possession!!!!

He does have a fair few English coins John, more than i would say was normal for a German dealer, maybe around a few hundred. i think his English coins outweigh everything else he has for sale from different countries. So it might be possible that he reads the boards, although his English isn't that great. Well it was obviously a lesson for me, but he said in an email to me that what he puts up for sale is not always what is for sale, it was in his German Terms of Sale, but what i would say is, why photograph a coin if its not the actual coin you're buying?

Ususally a German dealer would state if he has more than a few of the same year coin (diverse Jahrgang) but this did not state this, but as i said, a lesson learned, he also said he will now refuse to sell to me again (big deal i say, there's a million dealers in this world)

Difficult one, Dave. Obviously English is not his first language, and he most likely does not read this board. But it is distinctly possible he spotted the anomaly himself, which would kind of lead one to believe it actually wasn't muck, but a real life mini "1". Alternatively, he may have deliberately used a photo of a genuine anomaly to draw in the punters, and then supplied another one. Easy with such an overwhelmingly common date as a 1936 penny.

Another possibility is that he has photoshopped a normal 1936, to look anomalous, again attracting possible customers. Maybe it's his only way of offloading 1936 pennies. If his small print doesn't guarantee the coin you see in the photo, then he's got you bang to rights, unfortunately. Although the fact he refuses to deal with you again, shows he's acting defensively. So I'd say it was deliberate on his part, one way or the other.

Are there any German coin websites you could use to name and shame him yourself, to stop others being shafted ?

[azda]

This part of your reply 1949 (Another possibility is that he has photoshopped a normal 1936, to look anomalous, again attracting possible customers. Maybe it's his only way of offloading 1936 pennies)

I believe that he hasn't done this but believe that he's spotted the possible 1 due to the fact he's told me to keep the coin he sent me and is refunding me the money i paid, so would suggest something else

This post has been edited by azda: 28 July 2010 - 01:10 PM

[TomGoodheart]

azda, on 28 July 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

TomGoodheart, on 28 July 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

And what's the name of this *ahem* recommended dealer?

Unfortunately i'd rather not say Tom, due to the fact that in Germany they have the American mentality where they will sue if you look at them the wrong way. Here's one scenario for you, they now have lawyers who scour ebay for anyone who's used someone elses pictures or text in their ebay listing. There was a case when someone had resold something but used the previous ebay text and pix, he was sucessfully sued for 700 euros. Thats the downside of living in Germany unfortunately

I wasn't (totally) serious about the naming and shaming really. But this 'sue at the drop of a hat' mentality is causing problems. Particularly coupled with the apparent German interpretation of image copyright rules. It means that auction sites and other search engines are being more careful about the images that they post. Which in turn makes it more difficult for researchers and for those wishing to find out about the provenance of their coins because either images are removed after the listings or only available at cost.

The internet should make it easier to learn about a subject like coins because of the huge quantity of different images of the same basic coin being made available. It should be easier to find whether a coin usually appears in Fine or EF, whether your example is typical and so on.

It should also make discussing the pros and cons of buying from a particular source easier. But if everyone is going to sue if you say you weren't best pleased with a transaction, the less well served we all will be.

I wonder how long it will be before say, the Greek or Italian governments hire people to scan the internet for artifacts and say "Yup, that's a Greek/Roman coin. We'll have it back now thanks"? Or you'll have lawyers contacting you for printing out the details of a coin you bought on ebay. "One image in colour is it? That'll be 20€ please"

[andyscouse]

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Henry II Part 2 ... Act IV, Scene II

[£400 for a Penny ?]

andyscouse, on 28 July 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Henry II Part 2 ... Act IV, Scene II

And when we've done that, can we move round to HR and Compliance ?

[Red Riley]

£400 for a Penny ?, on 28 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

andyscouse, on 28 July 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Henry II Part 2 ... Act IV, Scene II

And when we've done that, can we move round to HR and Compliance ?

They normally have some pretty girls working in HR...

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Red Riley, on 28 July 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

£400 for a Penny ?, on 28 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

andyscouse, on 28 July 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Henry II Part 2 ... Act IV, Scene II

And when we've done that, can we move round to HR and Compliance ?

They normally have some pretty girls working in HR...

And if we've time, we can sweep up any department that has the word 'Excellence' in it's title and then go for a couple of pints. Red, you can stay behind in HR if you want.

No, hang on, they'd be dead wouldn't they, that's not right.....

[Colin G.]

£400 for a Penny ?, on 28 July 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

andyscouse, on 28 July 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers

Henry II Part 2 ... Act IV, Scene II

And when we've done that, can we move round to HR and Compliance ?

I work in compliance

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Colin G., on 28 July 2010 - 05:34 PM, said:

I work in compliance

Go to lunch early on wednesday 4th, Colin.

[azda]

If you could do me a favour and hit Health and Safety afterwards, full of absolute hot air, the UK has gone H&S mad, it's amazing any work gets done, it must take 7 and a half hours to put the safety equiptment on, then 30 mins lunch then finished for the day, ABSOLUTE IDIOTS rant over

[Colin G.]

£400 for a Penny ?, on 28 July 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

Colin G., on 28 July 2010 - 05:34 PM, said:

I work in compliance

Go to lunch early on wednesday 4th, Colin.

Thanks for the heads up!!

I find the level of regulation as frustrating as everyone else, I try to take a reasonable common sense approach

[Red Riley]

Colin G., on 28 July 2010 - 05:34 PM, said:

I work in compliance

I think we're all living parallel lives; I worked in Compliance, preceded by ten years as a salesman. I even had a stint working for the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Perhaps we need a Numismatic Ombudsman?

No, didn't think you'd agree...

[Colin G.]

I did a couple of years as a salesman, but I was not pushy enough

I now work in Building Control on commercial projects (before you all start having a go at me about dodgy extensions)

[davidrj]

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

[Peckris]

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

Yes, an illusion not helped by the fact the eBay picture is ovoid - clearly the camera wasn't quite in the same plane as the coin.

[1949threepence]

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

Object lesson in how you can never fully trust photos.

[Peckris]

1949threepence, on 30 July 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

Object lesson in how you can never fully trust photos.

Strike that fully 1949 - I know what Photoshop can do!

[1949threepence]

Peckris, on 31 July 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 30 July 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

Object lesson in how you can never fully trust photos.

Strike that fully 1949 - I know what Photoshop can do!

That was just for normal photos, Peck, where no intentional distortion has occurred. Photoshop is for con men, pure and simple.

[Red Riley]

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered

David

I would be surprised if there was any intention to defraud here. I suspect that a re-entered 'O' is way beyond the wit of e-bayers selling scrap bronze at 99p a throw. The first photograph looks like it was taken in natural light and the second under artificial light or possibly even a scanner. I can't explain the shadow in the first photo but these things happen.

Photoshop when used correctly, is a useful tool and I find it essential to adjust the brightness/contrast when photos typically turn out too dark largely as a result of an automatic camera over-correcting the light exposure. Where it tips into fraud is functions like the spot-healing tool which can remove stains or spots of verdigris. I even have a function that can give the impression of wrapping the entire coin in plastic! Unfortunately there isn't one which works the other way round and removes the slab...

[Peckris]

1949threepence, on 01 August 2010 - 06:11 AM, said:

Peckris, on 31 July 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 30 July 2010 - 10:33 PM, said:

davidrj, on 29 July 2010 - 11:47 PM, said:

1949threepence, on 24 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think it's a blodge of something above another blodge of something, giving the appearance of a "1". There's some more muck between the "3" & "6".

But until you get coin in hand, who knows for certain.

I think we all see want we want to see at times. Here's one that fooled me - a reentered "O" in ONE in a 1903 penny

Ebay picture on left



No doubt here it's the same coin - another 99p dream shattered



David

Object lesson in how you can never fully trust photos.

Strike that fully 1949 - I know what Photoshop can do!

That was just for normal photos, Peck, where no intentional distortion has occurred. Photoshop is for con men, pure and simple.

Bit strong, 1949! I'm with Derek on this - it's very useful for adjusting the exposure and levels, contrast, colour balance etc - all kinds of things. But yes, you can pervert it to 'improve' coins at which point it is a menace, but what can you do? My solution is never to buy from anyone who doesn't give a 7-day moeny-back guarantee if not satisfied.

[Tony Clayton]

azda, on 28 July 2010 - 11:48 AM, said:

argentumandcoins, on 28 July 2010 - 10:47 AM, said:

A hard one to call...

I have made mistakes in the past, as happens when dealing online, on ebay and with visits to my premises.
I did sell a high value shilling twice by selling it to a caller and not clearing it from my website availability, so yes, mistakes do happen.

Is it likely that a German dealer would use this forum? You know him Dave, does he have any interest in or a vast stock of GB coins?

I think you have already been told several times but..... say nowt about owt until you have possession!!!!

He does have a fair few English coins John, more than i would say was normal for a German dealer, maybe around a few hundred. i think his English coins outweigh everything else he has for sale from different countries. So it might be possible that he reads the boards, although his English isn't that great. Well it was obviously a lesson for me, but he said in an email to me that what he puts up for sale is not always what is for sale, it was in his German Terms of Sale, but what i would say is, why photograph a coin if its not the actual coin you're buying?

Ususally a German dealer would state if he has more than a few of the same year coin (diverse Jahrgang) but this did not state this, but as i said, a lesson learned, he also said he will now refuse to sell to me again (big deal i say, there's a million dealers in this world)

To my mind posting a 'stock' image of a similar coin is misleading, and I certainly would not deal with that person again.

As to the original image - I have seen so many blemishes caused by corrosion looking like die letters etc that I doubt that the original coin had anything real there.