1797 Twopence

[colliewalker1]

I have just come across the 1797 'cartwheel' twopence which I had not known existed.

The details of this coin are 'mind boggling' - diameter 41mm,5mm thick and weight 2oz!

I had decided to concentrate on silver coins which I think are more attractive than copper or bronze - but I'm tempted to make an exception in this case as it seems to me that this would make quite a feature in a collection.

These coins had a very short life, being - unsurprisingly - unpopular due to their size and weight (half a dozen in one's pocket would be rather inconvenient!) so are presumably quite scarce.

I would be interested to know what members think of the collectability of this coin - with the cost of a desirable example being part of the consideration.

[Master Jmd]

Yes, the cartwheel twopence does exist...it is only for 1797 but with a lot of very expencieve proofs...i would stick to silver if i were you

[Sylvester]

The other day i finally managed to hold a Cartwheel twopence, it's only took me 15 years to actually meet one in person. Not as heavy as i thought they would be.

[Chris Perkins]

I have a number for sale colliewalker, they are popular but not at all rare, at least not in mid-lower grades. For about £20 you could get quite a decent one.

As the biggest coin that ever circulated and one of the first to be struck with steam power they are important numismatically.

[Sylvester]

As the biggest coin that ever circulated and one of the first to be struck with steam power they are important numismatically.

Biggest in weight overall dimensions, or biggest in diameter? Cos i think you find hammered silver pounds and gold triple unites were bigger in diameter. I have a feeling the triple unites would weight more too.

Dunno though, silver pounds were the biggest ever.

[Emperor Oli]

I used to have a Cartwheel penny but it started showing signs of verdigris so I sold it

[Chris Perkins]

As the biggest coin that ever circulated and one of the first to be struck with steam power they are important numismatically.

Biggest in weight overall dimensions, or biggest in diameter? Cos i think you find hammered silver pounds and gold triple unites were bigger in diameter. I have a feeling the triple unites would weight more too.

Dunno though, silver pounds were the biggest ever.

Ok, perhaps it's the biggest coin that ever circulated from the last 400+ years!

I know gold is a dense metal, but hammered coins are always thinner, do you think it would weight more?

[Sylvester]

Ok, perhaps it's the biggest coin that ever circulated from the last 400+ years!

I know gold is a dense metal, but hammered coins are always thinner, do you think it would weight more?

I don't know Chris really. I've never met a triple Unite in the flesh, now silver halfcrowns are quite thick, but gold unites are quite thin.

I'd guess that the Triple unite would be thin as you suggest. The overall density of the metal is much more than copper. The atomic mass of gold being 197 and that of copper being a mere 64... hard to argue that one really, i'd have to know the grams of both to know for sure.

Undoubtedly though i'd say the silver pounds are heavier than the copper twopence or the triple unite.

Silver's atomic mass is 108. So i'd reckon on the silver pound being the biggest of them all.

[Geordie582]

I thought that the cartweel series was based on the penny being 1 oz of copper and the two pence, 2 ozs??

[Guest Rob_I'm_a_Guest]

Ok, perhaps it's the biggest coin that ever circulated from the last 400+ years!

I know gold is a dense metal, but hammered coins are always thinner, do you think it would weight more?

I don't know Chris really. I've never met a triple Unite in the flesh, now silver halfcrowns are quite thick, but gold unites are quite thin.

I'd guess that the Triple unite would be thin as you suggest. The overall density of the metal is much more than copper. The atomic mass of gold being 197 and that of copper being a mere 64... hard to argue that one really, i'd have to know the grams of both to know for sure.

Undoubtedly though i'd say the silver pounds are heavier than the copper twopence or the triple unite.

Silver's atomic mass is 108. So i'd reckon on the silver pound being the biggest of them all.

The atomic weights are no indication. The only important number is the density of the metal and so by extension the volume of metal in the coin determines its weight. Useful numbers as follows expressed in kg/cubic metre.

Aluminium 2700

Tin 7310

Nickel 8908

Antimony 6697

Copper 8920

Silver 10490

Lead 11340

Gold 19300

[Chris Perkins]

So, a 1cm cube of gold would be heavier than a 1cm cube of lead?

[Sylvester]

So, a 1cm cube of gold would be heavier than a 1cm cube of lead?

Looking at that, erm yes.

[Chris Perkins]

Well that's interesting, because although gold is a 'heavy' metal, I would have thought lead would be heavier.

[Sylvester]

Well that's interesting, because although gold is a 'heavy' metal, I would have thought lead would be heavier.

You and me both Chris.

I thought the further up the periodic table you went the heavier the elements got, since lead is after gold i would have though it had been heavier.

Unless it a bonding thing? Perhaps gold atoms are closer than lead ones meaning there's more in a certain area, which means that although they are lighter overall the difference balances out in gold's favour.*

*That's a guess (not based on principles but just me making it up) So if i'm wrong... well i agree.

[Rob]

Well that's interesting, because although gold is a 'heavy' metal, I would have thought lead would be heavier.

You and me both Chris.

I thought the further up the periodic table you went the heavier the elements got, since lead is after gold i would have though it had been heavier.

Unless it a bonding thing? Perhaps gold atoms are closer than lead ones meaning there's more in a certain area, which means that although they are lighter overall the difference balances out in gold's favour.*

*That's a guess (not based on principles but just me making it up) So if i'm wrong... well i agree.

Basically right. The density depends on the lattice structure of the solid which is determined amongst other things by the outer electron shell of the atoms concerned, together with an increasing density as you increase the atomic weight due to the presence of a heavier protected atomic nucleus nucleus. Based on these 2 main criteria, the relatively less dense elements in the list such as aluminium, tin, antimony and lead have s and p orbital electrons in the outer shell whereas the relatively denser ones such as copper, nickel, gold and silver have s and d orbital electrons in the outer shell. Hence you can get misconceived preconceptions of which is metal is or should be "heavier". Add platinum at 21090 kg/m3 to the previous list. It has a less complete outer shell than gold and so offers greater possibilities for bonding. More bonds = tighter lattice. Not a full explanation but hopefully clear enough.

[Sylvester]

I understand that actually.

Had to get me thinking cap on back with the sub shells there for a moment, but i get the jist.

[Guest T.Dooley]

Hello there, I was just reading over your comments about the 1797 twopence. I purchased my coin in Bath UK, 20 years ago. I have a question about this magnificent coin. I thought maybe you guy's might have an answer or a lead.

My particular coin is stamped with two large "G" 's, one on either end of the face and on both sides of the coin? Any ideas what this means? All the twopence coins from 1797 that I have seen do not have this stamp... Very confused - any help

T.dooley

[krasnaya_vityaz]

Please allow me to weigh in on the 1797 Tuppence, it was a large coin of course, as was the 1 oz penny from 1797. Whilst they were a shortlived issue in the sense of having only been minted one year, they made a dramatic contribution to coin circulation because of their rather substantial mintages. In fact, I have read of survey accounts from Northern England in the 1840's whence the 1797 issue pennies and tuppence were still circulating in considerable proportion to the then circulating coinages.

One of the more macabre usages of the 1797 pennies was that they were said to be often used in burials to cover the eyes of the deceased so that the eyes would not open again during the funeral. So seemingly many of them are distributed in the burial yards across Britain.

[simon]

By the way:

The Diameter of a Triple Unite is 46mm and its weight is 27.2grams.

I own several cartweel pennies and Twopences and its just fun to look at them because of its different colours.

In my oppinion, coppercoins in general can be very interesting to look at with all its various colours they get over the years.

-Simon-