Sixpence with weak areas

[Nick]

Here's an 1873 sixpence (clashed dies) with a couple of weak areas on the ribbon and the oak leaf at 4 o'clock. Is this just normal die clogging? Or is the die unfinished in those areas?

How would these weaknesses affect the grade? And which would be the better coin: aUNC with weaknesses or gEF fully struck up?

[Coinery]

Here's an 1873 sixpence (clashed dies) with a couple of weak areas on the ribbon and the oak leaf at 4 o'clock. Is this just normal die clogging? Or is the die unfinished in those areas?

How would these weaknesses affect the grade? And which would be the better coin: aUNC with weaknesses or gEF fully struck up?

Nick, where you can see the underside of Victoria's chin, just left of the S in six, is the bust incuse or in relief, it's one of those optical illusions for me?

Also, speaking personally, I'd alway prefer a GEF fully-struck over a aUNC with weaknesses!

[Nick]

Here's an 1873 sixpence (clashed dies) with a couple of weak areas on the ribbon and the oak leaf at 4 o'clock. Is this just normal die clogging? Or is the die unfinished in those areas?

How would these weaknesses affect the grade? And which would be the better coin: aUNC with weaknesses or gEF fully struck up?

Nick, where you can see the underside of Victoria's chin, just left of the S in six, is the bust incuse or in relief, it's one of those optical illusions for me?

Also, speaking personally, I'd alway prefer a GEF fully-struck over a aUNC with weaknesses!

It's as you would expect, the outline of the bust leaves an incuse impression on the reverse die and then becomes a relief outline on the coin.

[Coinery]

So do you think it's possible that the highest points of the design just ran out of metal, so to speak, with the added relief Victoria now sucking extra silver? So weak strike, possibly?

Just exploring a theory, given that weaknesses are a common side-effect of designs that are too volumous, G5 being a classic example?

[Peckris]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

[Nick]

So do you think it's possible that the highest points of the design just ran out of metal, so to speak, with the added relief Victoria now sucking extra silver? So weak strike, possibly?

Just exploring a theory, given that weaknesses are a common side-effect of designs that are too volumous, G5 being a classic example?

The sixpence reverses of the period are usually pretty well struck. It just seems odd that the oak leaves are generally concave, but this one appears convex. Could that happen with a slight weakness of strike?

[Nick]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

[Coinery]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma!

Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

[Rob]

So do you think it's possible that the highest points of the design just ran out of metal, so to speak, with the added relief Victoria now sucking extra silver? So weak strike, possibly?

Just exploring a theory, given that weaknesses are a common side-effect of designs that are too volumous, G5 being a classic example?

The sixpence reverses of the period are usually pretty well struck. It just seems odd that the oak leaves are generally concave, but this one appears convex. Could that happen with a slight weakness of strike?

Could be a piece fell off the die looking at the surface of the leaf. Don't forget the concave/low relief bits on the coin are the high points on the die.

[Peckris]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma!

Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

"Heads I'll buy you GEF, tails I'll buy you AUNC" [a fortnight later..] "Heads I'll buy you GF, tails I'll buy you AVF"

[Coinery]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma!

Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

"Heads I'll buy you GEF, tails I'll buy you AUNC" [a fortnight later..] "Heads I'll buy you GF, tails I'll buy you AVF"

and not so far from the truth! I owned them both and couldn't for the life of me decide which one to keep and which one to sell. Fortunately it's not an issue that often!

[Rob]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma!

Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

"Heads I'll buy you GEF, tails I'll buy you AUNC" [a fortnight later..] "Heads I'll buy you GF, tails I'll buy you AVF"

and not so far from the truth! I owned them both and couldn't for the life of me decide which one to keep and which one to sell. Fortunately it's not an issue that often!

If in doubt, keep both. Eventually you will decide that you can't live with one or the other, or both.

[Peckris]

Bear in mind (some people on this forum seem to forget this) that a picture hugely magnified as that is, will show every tiny flaw in horrendous detail. Allowing for that, I would say that the oak leaf wouldn't be a huge problem on a coin the size of a sixpence, and nor would the ribbon which is often not strong. It would barely affect the grade at all, and I'm betting that in hand those defects are very hard to see.

If you like the coin, go for it! As for GEF over AUNC, there's hardly a piece of Bronco between those two grades, so it all comes down to eye appeal.

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin.

I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma!

Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

"Heads I'll buy you GEF, tails I'll buy you AUNC" [a fortnight later..] "Heads I'll buy you GF, tails I'll buy you AVF"

and not so far from the truth! I owned them both and couldn't for the life of me decide which one to keep and which one to sell. Fortunately it's not an issue that often!

If in doubt, keep both. Eventually you will decide that you can't live with one or the other, or both.

If in doubt, keep both. Eventually you will decide that you can't live withOUT one or the other, or both.