Philip & Mary Base Penny Conundrum

[Rob]

As you will be aware, the penny was struck in 3oz 2dwt silver during the reign of Edward VI through to the end of Philip & Mary. Edward VI is stright forward with the London coins bearing the scallop mark and York the pierced mullet, the legends being [CIVITAS] LONDON and EBORACI respectively. The coins of P&M are slightly more complicated. Mint marks are halved rose and castle or castle for the London coins. Pennies (at 3oz fine) were also issued for use in Ireland and bear the rose mark, though were struck in York and read CIVITAS EBORACI. They were struck from called in base coinage of Henry VIII and Edward VI after being further debased.

An example of the York penny struck during Ed.VI is below.

The London penny of P&M with halved rose and castle looks like this

Edited August 24, 2011 by Rob

[Rob]

The problem I have is that I also have a P&M London penny that looks like this. Not unknown, but I only recall seeing one other example in either the Circular or Seaby's Bulletin a few decades ago.

This clearly has the rose mark associated with the Irish issue and I'm assuming that it was a die where the rose wasn't overstruck. I want to get as many images of base pennies of P&M as I can lay my hands on. I'm trying to establish whether the halved rose and castle is actually castle over rose, where the dies were returned to London from York and used for English pennies, or was it genuinely halved rose and castle? The image of mine shows what could be a softly punched castle over rose, where as other images show the rose component to be almost completely obliterated by a strongly punched castle, but still present. The implication being that a halved rose and castle punch didn't exist. I would also like any images of an Irish penny as these are like hens' teeth. Base pennies aren't particularly rare, so someone should be able to chip in with a contribution. Thanks in advance.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Rob

[joey]

The problem I have is that I also have a P&M London penny that looks like this. Not unknown, but I only recall seeing one other example in either the Circular or Seaby's Bulletin a few decades ago.

This clearly has the rose mark associated with the Irish issue and I'm assuming that it was a die where the rose wasn't overstruck. I want to get as many images of base pennies of P&M as I can lay my hands on. I'm trying to establish whether the halved rose and castle is actually castle over rose, where the dies were returned to London from York and used for English pennies, or was it genuinely halved rose and castle? The image of mine shows what could be a softly punched castle over rose, where as other images show the rose component to be almost completely obliterated by a strongly punched castle, but still present. The implication being that a halved rose and castle punch didn't exist. I would also like any images of an Irish penny as these are like hens' teeth. Base pennies aren't particularly rare, so someone should be able to chip in with a contribution. Thanks in advance.

Rob,Andrew Howitt has a P&M penny.You should find it with this link.If you have not already seen it. www.bottles.freeserve.co.uk/fsp.htm

[Colin G.]

Rob,

There are a couple on UKDFD

[Rob]

Rob,

There are a couple on UKDFD

Thanks Colin & Joey.

Both the single coin on the database and the one pointed out by Joey have the halved rose and castle mark. The castle is very clear, being in higher relief to the rose sticking out of the left side and is of a consistent size when compared to others with the same degree of clarity. This must suggest a single punch was used for the mark. Compare that with my halved rose mark and you will see that my coin has a very blundered mark which is typical of filled and recut dies. The castle appears to have a rose shape superimposed on the coin, i.e. the castle was punched to a shallower depth compared to the rose. This would be expected if the die had been hardened previously.

Surely on a forum where the number of penny collectors is on an industrial scale there must be someone with an example. The silence is deafening.

[joey]

Rob,

There are a couple on UKDFD

Thanks Colin & Joey.

Both the single coin on the database and the one pointed out by Joey have the halved rose and castle mark. The castle is very clear, being in higher relief to the rose sticking out of the left side and is of a consistent size when compared to others with the same degree of clarity. This must suggest a single punch was used for the mark. Compare that with my halved rose mark and you will see that my coin has a very blundered mark which is typical of filled and recut dies. The castle appears to have a rose shape superimposed on the coin, i.e. the castle was punched to a shallower depth compared to the rose. This would be expected if the die had been hardened previously.

Surely on a forum where the number of penny collectors is on an industrial scale there must be someone with an example. The silence is deafening.

G'day Rob found this one down here on an Australian site.This link should get you there. The P&M penny was on page two of the english coin section.Hope it helps. http://www.intnumis.com.au/index.php/cPath/123_228/page_id/1

[Peter]

Rob,

There are a couple on UKDFD

Thanks Colin & Joey.

Both the single coin on the database and the one pointed out by Joey have the halved rose and castle mark. The castle is very clear, being in higher relief to the rose sticking out of the left side and is of a consistent size when compared to others with the same degree of clarity. This must suggest a single punch was used for the mark. Compare that with my halved rose mark and you will see that my coin has a very blundered mark which is typical of filled and recut dies. The castle appears to have a rose shape superimposed on the coin, i.e. the castle was punched to a shallower depth compared to the rose. This would be expected if the die had been hardened previously.

Surely on a forum where the number of penny collectors is on an industrial scale there must be someone with an example. The silence is deafening.

Ahh but pennies have to be post 1860 and be recorded by Peck,Freeman,Gouby & Satin etc.

I would confess P&M pennies have sucessfully slipped by my net over the years.

Thanks for the info Rob.

[Rob]

Just to bump this one along. I haven't found anything regarding the P&M penny with the rose mark. Rose is definitely an Irish mark from 1555-8 as Irish groats bear this mark dated for all inclusive years. We know that the Irish base Rose pennies normally have the rose mark and the CIVITAS EBORACI reverse.

According to the Irish State Papers for the first year of Elizabeth's reign, a document dated 4th feb 1558/9 concerning Harp Money says that in Anno Primo P&M, £20059 6s 4d of 3oz rose pence were struck from 6oz fine base currency. By my reckoning, this should refer to the base pennies of similar design to the English pieces but marked with the rose and having the EBORACI reverse. There is no mention in Symond's article (BNJ 8. 1911) of coins having been struck in York. Does anyone have, or know of any documents referring to the mint at York remaining open at this time? According to Symonds, at her accession, Mary closed the provincial mints, so any pence struck at York would have required its susbsequent reopening. Therefore, beside the obvious Rose mark which we know is for Ireland, is the use of the EBORACI reverse a further simple means of identifying the Irish pence even though they were struck at London? Following the closure of York, were all dies returned to London and the York reverses of Edward VI used up without modification? These have nothing in the detail to restrict them to Ed. VI, so their reuse would be acceptable.

If so, this would simplify the position of the rose marked London penny above which ought not to exist. i.e. it is a mule between an Irish penny obverse and English penny reverse. Normally you would have London reverses paired with the castle or halved rose and castle marked obverse die. Some of the English halved rose and castle base pennies look as if the castle is struck over a ground out rose, whereas some have a mark that is clearly a single halved rose and castle punch. Is the 'ground out' rose an Irish obverse modified for English use following the period ending in 1555 when the Irish pence were struck? The pennies were returning to Britain in sufficient numbers by 1556 for a proclamation to be made banning them on the 19th Sept. This was not the first such edict, but the date of the previous one is uncertain.

If anyone has any info regarding the York mint being open in this period it would be appreciated.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Rob

[azda]

Rob,There are a couple on UKDFD

Thanks Colin & Joey.Both the single coin on the database and the one pointed out by Joey have the halved rose and castle mark. The castle is very clear, being in higher relief to the rose sticking out of the left side and is of a consistent size when compared to others with the same degree of clarity. This must suggest a single punch was used for the mark. Compare that with my halved rose mark and you will see that my coin has a very blundered mark which is typical of filled and recut dies. The castle appears to have a rose shape superimposed on the coin, i.e. the castle was punched to a shallower depth compared to the rose. This would be expected if the die had been hardened previously. Surely on a forum where the number of penny collectors is on an industrial scale there must be someone with an example. The silence is deafening.

I'll add this Here also Rob

[Rob]

Rob,There are a couple on UKDFD

Thanks Colin & Joey.Both the single coin on the database and the one pointed out by Joey have the halved rose and castle mark. The castle is very clear, being in higher relief to the rose sticking out of the left side and is of a consistent size when compared to others with the same degree of clarity. This must suggest a single punch was used for the mark. Compare that with my halved rose mark and you will see that my coin has a very blundered mark which is typical of filled and recut dies. The castle appears to have a rose shape superimposed on the coin, i.e. the castle was punched to a shallower depth compared to the rose. This would be expected if the die had been hardened previously. Surely on a forum where the number of penny collectors is on an industrial scale there must be someone with an example. The silence is deafening.

I'll add this Here also Rob

Thanks Dave

[azda]

I'll sort out better pcs when it arrives but an't see a mintmark at all

[Rob]

I think it's ok. Mark is halved rose and castle at 7pm after SPI

Edited April 6, 2015 by Rob