1861 Penny Variety

[Mat]

Hi all

Please could I ask for help in identifying the correct dies used for the following pennies... From a large batch I bought I have pretty much identified all the dies from 1862 onwards, however the 1860 and 1861 have proved to be a bit of a pain to me! I am not much for the different minor varieties, however I don’t want to miss the boat if one of them is a rare one. The batch also contained an 1860 penny with a hyphen between the 18-60. It may well be crud stuck in the die but its a very well formed piece of crud if it is! To start with I noticed very different date spreads between them.

Thanks

Mat

[Mat]

None of the obverse sides have the signature and Pic 1 is the only reverse with a signature which is under the shield. I believe to be the common die combination, however the date spread seems to be particularly wide on this specimen.

Pic 2 I am unable to identify and has an unusually close and dropped 1 at the end of the date, I have never seen that before with this date?

Pic 3 I am unable to identify

Pic 4 appears to have the same lighthouse as pic 1, however no signature under the shield.

[Peckris]

None of the obverse sides have the signature and Pic 1 is the only reverse with a signature which is under the shield. I believe to be the common die combination, however the date spread seems to be particularly wide on this specimen.

Pic 2 I am unable to identify and has an unusually close and dropped 1 at the end of the date, I have never seen that before with this date?

Pic 3 I am unable to identify

Pic 4 appears to have the same lighthouse as pic 1, however no signature under the shield.

I'm no expert on those first two years either (in fact I need Freeman to decipher most bun varieties, truth be told). However, the variation in spacings of the date numerals - particularly the last one - is a common feature of those early years. You probably need to be looking at other parts of the design to see the respective die combinations.

[Mat]

That’s the bit I am having most difficulty with! I have noticed one of the past London sales has the sale close dropped 1 of the 1861, I will need to blow up the images and compare to see if it is the same die paring: 01/03/2009 124 695 Penny 1861 Freeman 20 dies 2+G UNC toned, Very Rare, Ex-Laurie Bamford collection

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/webcatalogue/124/L695R.JPG

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/webcatalogue/124/L695.JPG

None of the obverse sides have the signature and Pic 1 is the only reverse with a signature which is under the shield. I believe to be the common die combination, however the date spread seems to be particularly wide on this specimen.

Pic 2 I am unable to identify and has an unusually close and dropped 1 at the end of the date, I have never seen that before with this date?

Pic 3 I am unable to identify

Pic 4 appears to have the same lighthouse as pic 1, however no signature under the shield.

I'm no expert on those first two years either (in fact I need Freeman to decipher most bun varieties, truth be told). However, the variation in spacings of the date numerals - particularly the last one - is a common feature of those early years. You probably need to be looking at other parts of the design to see the respective die combinations.

[1949threepence]

None of the obverse sides have the signature and Pic 1 is the only reverse with a signature which is under the shield. I believe to be the common die combination, however the date spread seems to be particularly wide on this specimen.

Pic 2 I am unable to identify and has an unusually close and dropped 1 at the end of the date, I have never seen that before with this date?

Pic 3 I am unable to identify

Pic 4 appears to have the same lighthouse as pic 1, however no signature under the shield.

I've no idea with pic 4, as it is quite well worn

I believe the others to be

Pic 1: 5 + D

Pic 2: 6 + G

Pic 3: 6 + G

By no means certain though. Pic 1 is clear enough, but pics 2 & 3 are inspired guesses as it is impossible to discern most of the main distinguishing features.

[niyuco]

#1 is Freeman 6+D

#2, #3 and #4 are 6+G

Both common types for 1861, but check the date / legend for oddities.

[1949threepence]

#1 is Freeman 6+D

#2, #3 and #4 are 6+G

Both common types for 1861, but check the date / legend for oddities.

Looking at pic 4 again, I think you're right ~ 6 + G.

The reason I went with obverse 5 for the first coin, is that Freeman describes obverse 6 as having the "B" of Britt almost touching the head. This is definitely the case with coins 2, 3 & 4, but not with coin 1, which seems to have a slightly greater clearance.

However, there's many a slip twixt cup and lip, and I fully concede I may be wrong. Maybe suffering from optical illusions, or whatever

[Mat]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

[davidrj]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

[£400 for a Penny ?]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

Likewise.

If I'm honest, I think it's because I'm not hugely interested

[Peckris]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

And that's not counting Jerrams!

[1949threepence]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

No worries, Mat. Pleased to be able to offer assistance, albeit probably rudimentary.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

Likewise.

If I'm honest, I think it's because I'm not hugely interested

It's quite a painstaking process, actually matching photos to Freeman coin types, and there's so many die pairings for 1860 & 61. Interesting nonetheless, and good experience.

[Red Riley]

Apart from the obvious ones (beaded border, LCW under foot) I find it impossible to commit the 1860/61 rare varieties to memory, and have to work with Gouby (more user friendly than Freeman) to establish what is what.

I suspect I have developed '400 syndrome'.

[scott]

the obverse with signiture under the queens neck too

[davidrj]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

They are not too difficult when you see good pictures of EF coins, it's when all you have are worn specimens that are in the price range most of us can afford

David

[1949threepence]

Thank you for all your help guys, I appreciate it. I have never owned a peck or a freeman book, so only ever had the Spink guidance to go on which I feel is less than adequate for 1860 and 1861.

I've got both Freeman and Gouby, but I still haven't got my head round all the penny dies for 1860 to 1862

David

They are not too difficult when you see good pictures of EF coins, it's when all you have are worn specimens that are in the price range most of us can affordDavid

That's the point I meant to add to my previous post, David. It's not that easy trying to classify worn specimens.

By the way, Merry Christmas, all. Trust you've not overeaten or got too drunk !!!

[Mat]

Yes of course we have not over eaten...

I have retreated to my coin room to burn off all the trimmings.

While we are on the 1860-1 pennies I thought I would show you this one that I mentioned in the original post, most likely a piece of debris stuck in the flan or die unless anyone can tell me different? Shame Mr Green has made himself a home on the reverse side.

[davidrj]

Yes of course we have not over eaten...

Speak for yourself!

I'm stlll digesting my lunchtime goose..........

..............and no Dear, I'm not ready for some tea

Edited December 25, 2010 by davidrj

[£400 for a Penny ?]

..............and no Dear, I'm not ready for some tea

No, quite.

What is it with these older, non coin collecting females ?

Am I a goose being fattened until my liver bursts and can be used in fois gras ?

I mean for Christ's sake, I've basically been pinned down for 9 hours and had food driven down my throat.

I'm all in favour of a bit of festive spirit and I try to reciprocate, but approach me with a pie (any filling) for several weeks and I will gun you down like a dog.

[Mat]

..............and no Dear, I'm not ready for some tea

No, quite.

What is it with these older, non coin collecting females ?

Am I a goose being fattened until my liver bursts and can be used in fois gras ?

I mean for Christ's sake, I've basically been pinned down for 9 hours and had food driven down my throat.

I'm all in favour of a bit of festive spirit and I try to reciprocate, but approach me with a pie (any filling) for several weeks and I will gun you down like a dog.

Thats the thing these females are lethal!

The sheer quantity of chocolate that appears to circulate through this house in December is phenomenal and its all female doing. If I am to even mention the word coin in their presence I am told off or told to make sure I keep those dirty old pieces of metal away from them or the living room.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Mat

[Peckris]

..............and no Dear, I'm not ready for some tea

No, quite.

What is it with these older, non coin collecting females ?

Am I a goose being fattened until my liver bursts and can be used in fois gras ?

I mean for Christ's sake, I've basically been pinned down for 9 hours and had food driven down my throat.

I'm all in favour of a bit of festive spirit and I try to reciprocate, but approach me with a pie (any filling) for several weeks and I will gun you down like a dog.

That’s the thing these females are lethal!

The sheer quantity of chocolate that appears to circulate through this house in December is phenomenal and its all female doing. If I am to even mention the word coin in their presence I am told off or told to make sure I keep those ‘dirty old pieces of metal’ away from them or the living room.

Speaking as a male chocaholic I'd like to put the record straight - and it was so in my case even before I saw the lovely Ms Binoche in 'Chocolat'.

Happy Crimbo everyone !

[1949threepence]

errr, cream doughnuts or rich chocolate eclairs, anyone ?

<- I'll get me coat.....

[Peckris]

errr, cream doughnuts or rich chocolate eclairs, anyone ?

<- I'll get me coat.....

The rich choccie eclair please 1949 You'll need that coat : 'twas -14ºC in these yerr parts yesterday evening

[1949threepence]

errr, cream doughnuts or rich chocolate eclairs, anyone ?

<- I'll get me coat.....

The rich choccie eclair please 1949 You'll need that coat : 'twas -14ºC in these yerr parts yesterday evening

It's yours, Peck & yes, we are on course for the coldest December since 1890. Currently -0.58C average. Previously in the modern era, 1981 was the next coldest at +0.3C. Allegedly, December 1890 had an average of -0.8C.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

It's yours, Peck & yes, we are on course for the coldest December since 1890. Currently -0.58C average. Previously in the modern era, 1981 was the next coldest at +0.3C. Allegedly, December 1890 had an average of -0.8C.

That's interesting, because the FTSE has had it's strongest December in 20 years.

Clearly, there are forces at work which we can barely comprehend.