Rounded and Sharp corners on 1941 and 1948 NB 3d

[declanwmagee]

I wonder if anyone can tell me any more than Peck can about the varieties of 1941 and 1948 Nickel-Brass threepence:

This is what Peck says:

"In practice the Royal Mint found that the life of the dodecagonal collar was shortened unduly by the development of cracks in its sharp corners. During the early years of the War, when the quantity and quality of steel suitable for die making were on the decline, the corners of these collars were made more rounded, and this resulted in a substantial increase in the effective life of the collars."

Although Peck makes no distinction in his rarity ratings between them, for both 1941 (when they switched to Rounded) and 1948 (when they switched back again), I have found that the Rounded 1941 is harder to find than the sharp 1941, and the Sharp 1948 is harder to find than the Rounded 1948.

The difficulty arises when trying to distinguish a worn Sharp from a Rounded, particularly with 1948 - which is a difficult year in high grade anyway.

I'd love to find out if there's an easier way to tell the difference, like a pointing or something like that. I understand that because we're looking at collars, not dies, it may not be that easy.

Any ideas?

cheers

Declan

[DaveG38]

I wonder if anyone can tell me any more than Peck can about the varieties of 1941 and 1948 Nickel-Brass threepence:

This is what Peck says:

"In practice the Royal Mint found that the life of the dodecagonal collar was shortened unduly by the development of cracks in its sharp corners. During the early years of the War, when the quantity and quality of steel suitable for die making were on the decline, the corners of these collars were made more rounded, and this resulted in a substantial increase in the effective life of the collars."

Although Peck makes no distinction in his rarity ratings between them, for both 1941 (when they switched to Rounded) and 1948 (when they switched back again), I have found that the Rounded 1941 is harder to find than the sharp 1941, and the Sharp 1948 is harder to find than the Rounded 1948.

The difficulty arises when trying to distinguish a worn Sharp from a Rounded, particularly with 1948 - which is a difficult year in high grade anyway.

I'd love to find out if there's an easier way to tell the difference, like a pointing or something like that. I understand that because we're looking at collars, not dies, it may not be that easy.

Any ideas?

cheers

Declan

When I was researching varieties for my book on 20th C Bronze, I too tried to find any identifiers for these types, but I am afraid that only Peck seemed to make reference to them in any detail.

A couple of other points that may help. Firstly there is also a sharp/rounded pair for 1949 - not mentioned by Peck. Secondly, all the sharp corner types are reported to have a slightly thinner rim than the rounded ones. However, on worn specimens this may not be easy to spot. The only other differentiator is for the 1941 where there are two minor varieties of the sharp corner type, one where the inside corner is sharp and the other where it is rounded.

[Gary D]

I wonder if anyone can tell me any more than Peck can about the varieties of 1941 and 1948 Nickel-Brass threepence:

This is what Peck says:

"In practice the Royal Mint found that the life of the dodecagonal collar was shortened unduly by the development of cracks in its sharp corners. During the early years of the War, when the quantity and quality of steel suitable for die making were on the decline, the corners of these collars were made more rounded, and this resulted in a substantial increase in the effective life of the collars."

Although Peck makes no distinction in his rarity ratings between them, for both 1941 (when they switched to Rounded) and 1948 (when they switched back again), I have found that the Rounded 1941 is harder to find than the sharp 1941, and the Sharp 1948 is harder to find than the Rounded 1948.

The difficulty arises when trying to distinguish a worn Sharp from a Rounded, particularly with 1948 - which is a difficult year in high grade anyway.

I'd love to find out if there's an easier way to tell the difference, like a pointing or something like that. I understand that because we're looking at collars, not dies, it may not be that easy.

Any ideas?

cheers

Declan

When I was researching varieties for my book on 20th C Bronze, I too tried to find any identifiers for these types, but I am afraid that only Peck seemed to make reference to them in any detail.

A couple of other points that may help. Firstly there is also a sharp/rounded pair for 1949 - not mentioned by Peck. Secondly, all the sharp corner types are reported to have a slightly thinner rim than the rounded ones. However, on worn specimens this may not be easy to spot. The only other differentiator is for the 1941 where there are two minor varieties of the sharp corner type, one where the inside corner is sharp and the other where it is rounded.

The amount of rounding is quite severe so would take a large amount of wear to obliterate a sharp edge example.

[1949threepence]

Declan,

I have three 1948 threepences, two average grade fillers which appear to be rounded, and one BU in my main collection, which has sharp edges.

[declanwmagee]

Thanks everyone - very helpful. I'll try to do a cool one-on-top-of the other shot like Gary did (except it won't be 2 high grade '49s! Gulp..), it'll be a low grade '48, and a low grade '50. The 1950 only came in a sharp version, and there isn't that much difference between that and the 1948, but it's not convincing enough for me to put it in an eBay description, I'd have to be a bit more confident to do that.

[brauereibeck]

Got this off ebay... Gap filled! Result!

Still on lookout for a sharp cornered '49 if anyone has one going spare.

[Peckris]

Got this off ebay... Gap filled! Result!

Still on lookout for a sharp cornered '49 if anyone has one going spare.

Well done. I should really pull my finger out and get a decent 1948 (don't care about the edge type) - it's a nasty gap in my collection.

FWIW my AEF 1949 is the sharp edged variety, but it's not going spare! (Though I'd happily swap it for a similar round edge example as I don't care about the edge distinction - however if the 1949 sharp edge is notably scarcer I would probably hope to swap mine for a better example of the rounded edge).

[brauereibeck]

Got this off ebay... Gap filled! Result!

Still on lookout for a sharp cornered '49 if anyone has one going spare.

Well done. I should really pull my finger out and get a decent 1948 (don't care about the edge type) - it's a nasty gap in my collection.

FWIW my AEF 1949 is the sharp edged variety, but it's not going spare! (Though I'd happily swap it for a similar round edge example as I don't care about the edge distinction - however if the 1949 sharp edge is notably scarcer I would probably hope to swap mine for a better example of the rounded edge).

In my personal opinion I'd say the price differential between a standard (rounded) 1949 and a sharp edged has got to be a grade's worth i.e. if the value of a standard (rounded) aEF is, let's say, £125 then your sharp has got to be £200-250 (i.e. what you'd pay for an EF+ grade). Like I say, I base this on personal opinion rather than experience and indeed £250 may seem extravagant However, as you'll of course know, many of the George VI varieties can be fiedishly hard to find in decent grades. None more so than this one. My 1949 is a presentable EF but with quite a few smudges so, from your point of view, it wouldn't be a fair one-for-one swap.

[declanwmagee]

Got this off ebay... Gap filled! Result!

Still on lookout for a sharp cornered '49 if anyone has one going spare.

Nicely done! I still don't have a 1948 Sharp, even though I started this topic 3 years ago! I do have a very decent 41 Round, courtesy of John Argentum, but I refuse to keep buying endless 48s on the off chance. I suppose I'll have to rely on some dealer type to specify what they have - anyone fancy selling me a '48 Sharp? VF'd do.

[Peckris]

Here's my 1949 sharp edge (blow up of a JPEG of an original lifesize scan, so it could look a lot better, e.g. none of the lustre shows up).

[Gary D]

Got this off ebay... Gap filled! Result!

Still on lookout for a sharp cornered '49 if anyone has one going spare.

Funny you should say, no I don't have a spare, but I wasn't aware of the round cornered 49 until about 3 weeks before I found one. I'd had the sharp for a long time. If I were to guess I'd say the sharp is the more common. The reason being that the sharp had already been introduce the previous year so they were probably using up an old spare collar to finish the run.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Gary D