What is this?

[Joe_Mander]

Hello all, I would like to know what this is, because I have reason to believe its a penny. But research has led my idea further as i can't find this date for this certain coin! Can somebody tell me what it is, and maybe tell me how much it is worth. The date is 1743 if you can't properly see it.

Thanks

[Chris Perkins]

It's not a penny. It's not even a coin. It's a little medal or medalet with George II on it. It may comemmorate the coronation or something political. From the heavy wear I imagine it probably circulated as a coin, either a farthing of a halfpenny (depending on size) when no one would have been able to read it and just accepted it because the King was on it!

[scottishmoney]

They are now referred to as "evasion pieces" given that they imitated regal coinage, but not close enough to be considered counterfeit. Most people would not have known the difference as they were illiterate, in the off chance they were literate they would not have cared as money was money. The 17th through early 19th centuries witnessed a dearth of coinage, all the while the economy grew at exponential pace, the coinage did not keep up. The result was evasion pieces, tokens, and even forged coins that were plated with silver etc. In many ways I think the alternative coinages from that time are more fascinating than the authentic regal issued coinage.

Here in what is now the USA evasion pieces usually had George II on them, with ridiculous dates sometimes - like 1723 etc, to predate them from prior to George III's reign when most of them were in fact created and circulated.

[Chris Perkins]

I wouldn't have called this an evasion piece, the quality of the workmanship looks like it would have been too high when the medal was struck. I think this was struck as a commemorative medal with no evasive intentions. The fact that it probably got spent as a copper coin shows how desparate people were for change.

What's the size in mm if you're still there Jow_Mander?

[josie]

Sometimes I saw some of those,

Non regal coin or medal good info.

[scottishmoney]

I wouldn't have called this an evasion piece, the quality of the workmanship looks like it would have been too high when the medal was struck. I think this was struck as a commemorative medal with no evasive intentions. The fact that it probably got spent as a copper coin shows how desparate people were for change.

I would tend to agree, but given that it is close to regal coinage I cannot concur with your opin. Maybe in theory whence it was produced that it could double as a commemorative medal, and it is more formal than even regal coinage in that notice GII title is noted as Georgius Secundus and not Georgius II as on the coinage. The purpose of evasion pieces was to steer around the law, not outwardly break it.

At any rate, for whatever intent and purpose it was created, nothing detracts from the curiosity of said piece.

[Joe_Mander]

What's the size in mm if you're still there Jow_Mander?

Its messured to be about 1.5 mm thick and the length of the coin is about 3.5cm.

Also thankyou to everyone who has replied and explained to me what it is.

Could this "Evasion piece" actually be worth anything then?

[Chris Perkins]

3.5cm is far too big to be a halfpenny or a farthing and there were no pennies then so it would have circulated at it's rough copper weight.

It's not an evasion piece the quality is too good and now the size data also supports my theory. Evasion pieces are always crude in terms of workmanship. Some aren't bad, but none are as good as this medal would have started life.

The value is next to nothing though as it's very worn. Couple of quid to someone that wants it.

[scottishmoney]

I think they are worth more than most people would, unfortunately. I like the history behind such pieces, but I like the fringe of collecting sometimes, collecting contemporary counterfeits as part of the history of coinage and not scorning them.

With some of my Scottish counterfeits of regal coinage I would actually pay more for the counterfeit than the real thing, especially with coppers, the penalty in Scotland and England as well then was death. It was more likely enforced early on in Scotland than in England. By the 18th century coinage had broken down so much in Britain that counterfeits were more or less tolerated to some extent.

[scottishmoney]

It's not an evasion piece the quality is too good and now the size data also supports my theory. Evasion pieces are always crude in terms of workmanship. Some aren't bad, but none are as good as this medal would have started life.

The value is next to nothing though as it's very worn. Couple of quid to someone that wants it.

I think we need to have a hearty debate 'bout the definition of "evasion" Winner gets the pint.

[Chris Perkins]

I'm simply suggesting that it was never made with any evasive intentions.

It was made to commemorate something, probably the life of George II, or coronation (I thought I saw a death date on the back though). Had it been pseudo-commemorative, about halfpenny size or more resembling regal coinage and crude in execution, then yes 'evasive'. This is none of those.

What do the others think?

[scottishmoney]

I still think we need to settle this with the pint Cause I will win, an' you'll buy the pint.

[Chris Perkins]

It's not evasive!

[Peter]

Its larger and heavier than an evasive piece.

The majority of evasive pieces were produced by melting down legal tender and producing lighter coins to pass as currency.

The largest George 11 copper coin was the halfpenny weighing between 9.7 - 10.3g and 28-30 dia. evasive pieces would be inside these limits

I'll go with a commemorative medlet.

Scottishmoney you can make that 2 pints

[scottishmoney]

That deal was with Chris only.

[Joe_Mander]

While this thread is open, i might aswell ask the worth of some other early coins in my collections.

I have a 1900 one penny, 1841 one penny and an 1896 3 pence (assuming its a 3 pence with a big 3 in the middle of this little coin). And yes, im sure both pennys are actually pennys this time. There all in good condition and was just wondering how much they would be worth if in later life i am interested in selling them.

Thank in advance, Joe Mander.

[Chris Perkins]

Very little probably. The age is almost irrelevant for the modern machine struck milled coins, it's always condition that counts and the standards that coins have to meet to be 'collectable' are very very high. Attach pictures again and we'll have a look as soon as scottishmoney has admitted he was wrong all along

[scottishmoney]

The pint is going flat...

[Joe_Mander]

Heres two pictures of the 1841 penny, sorry it took so long to upload them.

[Chris Perkins]

That's just worth a pound or 2 because it's quite worn.

[Chingford]

Heres two pictures of the 1841 penny, sorry it took so long to upload them.

looks like a Halfpenny, a quick accurate check for Coppers without the denomination in the Legend is the diameter; 34mm Penny, 28mm Halfpenny, and 22mm farthing.

The condition of this coin is quite poor so unfortunately no real value financially, but it is still a piece of history.

[Joe_Mander]

Heres also two pictures of another old coin i have. The coin is quite clear so i hope the value will be good!

[Chris Perkins]

It's not really all that clear is it Joe. The bust of Victoria shows a bit of ear, a bit of crown and not much more. In fact it's very nearly a silouette. On an 'as new' one you can see the folds in the veil and the jewels in the crown and practically the Queen's earwax!

That's scrap silver I'm afraid, 20 - 30p. I sell them like that for people to munch on in Christmas puds:

http://www.predecimal.com/forsale/christmasthreepences.htm

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news again.

[scottishmoney]

I have several Vicky threenubs that are just essentially bullion value, they are .925 fine silver, but not a lot of it though.