Grading Questions

[Guest Muygrandeoso]

Hello

I am hoping I can get some advice about grading Victorian pennys. I have attached images of two recent aquisitions....a F17 that I think is VF or EF and a F121 that has been cleaned. I would like opinions on the grade of the F17 and ideas about how you deal with a coin that has been cleaned when it comes to grading.

Thanks!

[josie]

Good coin you have their.

Im not also good in grading,hope other will grade it by seing the picture you post.

[Red Riley]

Nobody's sticking their neck out so I'll have a stab at the F17. To my mind this is GVF-NEF but would require to see the coin to firm up on it. When grading the earlier bun pennies, the touchstones are the hairline above the eye and the embroidery on the dress which wears from right to left. The reverses are a little more problematic as they tend to be quite various e.g. the shield on some coins is convex and shows wear quite readily whereas others (1860-61 and 1882-94) are quite flat and can be almost the last piece of detail on the coin to wear away. Check out Michael Gouby's 'The British Penny 1860-1970'.

With regard to cleaned coins, I would always try to grade accurately and then simply say 'cleaned' if I was going to sell. By the way, it is difficult to judge the grade of the later coin from the scan, but I don't think it will be less than GVF and could be much better. If cleaned however, the value will be not more than a few pounds.

Unfortunately, as you are no doubt discovering, there is no substitute for experience where grading is concerned.

Can I change my mind? Have now looked in more detail at the reverse of the F17 which appears to show more wear than the obverse, so drop to VF-GVF. See how difficult it is?

[muygrandeoso]

Nobody's sticking their neck out so I'll have a stab at the F17. To my mind this is GVF-NEF but would require to see the coin to firm up on it. When grading the earlier bun pennies, the touchstones are the hairline above the eye and the embroidery on the dress which wears from right to left. The reverses are a little more problematic as they tend to be quite various e.g. the shield on some coins is convex and shows wear quite readily whereas others (1860-61 and 1882-94) are quite flat and can be almost the last piece of detail on the coin to wear away. Check out Michael Gouby's 'The British Penny 1860-1970'.

With regard to cleaned coins, I would always try to grade accurately and then simply say 'cleaned' if I was going to sell. By the way, it is difficult to judge the grade of the later coin from the scan, but I don't think it will be less than GVF and could be much better. If cleaned however, the value will be not more than a few pounds.

Unfortunately, as you are no doubt discovering, there is no substitute for experience where grading is concerned.

Can I change my mind? Have now looked in more detail at the reverse of the F17 which appears to show more wear than the obverse, so drop to VF-GVF. See how difficult it is?

Thanks for the help. I got the F17 in a collection I bought on Ebay. I only paid $34USD for the collection, so I think I did alright.

[josie]

WELCOME Muy

[Peter]

It would appear the 1860 has also been cleaned and is re toning with a finger print et al .

NVF would also be generous.

Cleaning in real terms reduces both coins to less than Fine prices....but Buns are widely collected and everything above a silloette can be shifted.

[muygrandeoso]

It would appear the 1860 has also been cleaned and is re toning with a finger print et al .

NVF would also be generous.

Cleaning in real terms reduces both coins to less than Fine prices....but Buns are widely collected and everything above a silloette can be shifted.

Can you explain to me why the F17 appears to be cleaned to you? I appreciate any wisdom I can gather on the subject.

Muygrandeoso

[Peter]

It has a very "post brasso" appearance.

Uncleaned copper/bronze is just not that colour.

Even the hint of lustre on the reverse (with the finger print) convinces me of cleaning...probably 20+ years ago.

This is my opinion only and I stand to be corrected.

It would appear the 1860 has also been cleaned and is re toning with a finger print et al .

NVF would also be generous.

Cleaning in real terms reduces both coins to less than Fine prices....but Buns are widely collected and everything above a silloette can be shifted.

Can you explain to me why the F17 appears to be cleaned to you? I appreciate any wisdom I can gather on the subject.

Muygrandeoso

[Red Riley]

It would appear the 1860 has also been cleaned and is re toning with a finger print et al .

NVF would also be generous.

Cleaning in real terms reduces both coins to less than Fine prices....but Buns are widely collected and everything above a silloette can be shifted.

It is not in prime condition, that's for sure and has some edge damage. But on a strict grading basis it has to be better than NVF - obverse wear in the usual places is minimal from what I can see. You may be right about the cleaning, although a lot of these early bronze coins did produce a very light tone, so without seeing etc...

In conclusion it is not a valuable coin and not one you could sell simply by stating its grade. If I were to sell, I would simply post a picture and let the buyer make up their own mind.

[guyincog]

It would appear the 1860 has also been cleaned and is re toning with a finger print et al .

NVF would also be generous.

Cleaning in real terms reduces both coins to less than Fine prices....but Buns are widely collected and everything above a silloette can be shifted.

It is not in prime condition, that's for sure and has some edge damage. But on a strict grading basis it has to be better than NVF - obverse wear in the usual places is minimal from what I can see. You may be right about the cleaning, although a lot of these early bronze coins did produce a very light tone, so without seeing etc...

In conclusion it is not a valuable coin and not one you could sell simply by stating its grade. If I were to sell, I would simply post a picture and let the buyer make up their own mind.

I would say Good VF for the F17. Need a better photo though. I agree it looks cleaned. But again, could just be the photo.

Worth pointing out that the F17 is high rarity (Jerrams 50-80 known) and so certainly not worthless, cleaned or not. I would pay £60 for it. On Ebay I imagine it would fetch more.

[Red Riley]

Worth pointing out that the F17 is high rarity (Jerrams 50-80 known) and so certainly not worthless, cleaned or not. I would pay £60 for it. On Ebay I imagine it would fetch more.

[muygrandeoso]

Worth pointing out that the F17 is high rarity (Jerrams 50-80 known) and so certainly not worthless, cleaned or not. I would pay £60 for it. On Ebay I imagine it would fetch more.

Yes, you are right F17 is one of the rarer varieties. I should have looked it up before posting. There does appear to be some dispute however over how rare this variety actually is. Freeman puts it in (his) category R13, whereas Gouby only puts it in (his) rarity category R5. The two scales are not interchangeable, and to put it in some kind of perspective, Freeman reckons it to be as rare as an 1865 over 3, whereas Gouby compares it with an 1871. Nonetheless, it is still a scarce coin and well worth the money that muygrandeoso paid for it. At a quick glance, the attribution to F17 does appear to be correct; a common reverse with an obverse more usually seen on 1861s.

Edited February 10, 2007 by muygrandeoso

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Off the top of my head, I think I have somewhere between 5-8 of them... not counting another 8 or so that I have disposed of already...... MOSTLY LOW GRADE THOUGH...

The F-17 in higher grades are very difficult to find and command a large premium......

[Red Riley]

The F-17 in higher grades are very difficult to find and command a large premium......

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

The F-17 in higher grades are very difficult to find and command a large premium......

It just occurred to me that there may be a reason for this coin being fairly common in low grade but pretty rare in say EF and above. Quite simply, a new coinage was launched in 1860 and many people who were not naturally coin collectors put examples aside. Given that this variety would in all probability not have hit the streets until 1861, most 'keepsake' coins would already have been happily sitting in drawers. It is also extremely unlikely that collectors of the time were that interested in such esoteric varieties, and hence F17 became quite scarce in the higher grades.