Value comparisons

[Guest Guest_Peter_I'm_a_Guest]

I am working on a project involving an important 14c English manuscript and have been asked to find the current value (approximate) of what was 40 shillings and of 500 marks/merks in 14c England.

Having just spent half an hour of fruitless searching on the internet I wondered if anyone here could point me in the right direction?

I can't even find marks in references regarding English coins finding only later Scottish merks.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Peter

[guyincog]

I am working on a project involving an important 14c English manuscript and have been asked to find the current value (approximate) of what was 40 shillings and of 500 marks/merks in 14c England.

Having just spent half an hour of fruitless searching on the internet I wondered if anyone here could point me in the right direction?

I can't even find marks in references regarding English coins finding only later Scottish merks.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Peter

This site will do the shillings.

Wikipedia (NOT a reliable source) has this to say about marks:

In England the "mark" never appeared as a coin, but as a money of account only, and apparently came into use in the 10th century through the Danes. It first equalled 100 pence, but after the Norman Conquest equalled 160 pence = 2/3 of the Pound Sterling, or 13 shillings and 4 pence. In Scotland, the Merk Scots comprised a silver coin of this value, issued first in 1570 and afterwards in 1663.

[Sylvester]

A mark is two nobles. Three nobles are a Pound. A noble is 80 pence, a groat is four pence. You might find this list useful;

Half Groat - (two pennies)

Groat - (four pennies)

Quarter Noble - (twenty pence or five groats) [1/8d]

Half Noble - (40 pence or 10 groats) [3/4d]

Noble - (80 pence or 20 groats) [6/8d]

Mark - (160 pence or 40 groats) [13/4d]

Pound - (240 pence, 60 groats or 1 & 1/2 marks) [20/-]

I think that's right. Bringing shillings into it causes no end of confusion, it's much easier when prices are quoted in groats.

So 500 marks in pounds would be 1.5 times less pounds. I make it about £333.33 in modern money. Or in predecimal £333/6/8

40 shillings is £2, a shilling being 5p.

Anyone want to double check my maths there?

[TomGoodheart]

This site will do the shillings. Edited October 6, 2006 by TomGoodheart

[Guest Guest_Peter_I'm_a_Guest]

Thanks for the info guys!!

Would anyone have an idea of what kind of multiplication factor I need to find how much , say one pound, in the mid 14c would be worth today. Not sure how it would be worked out - the price of bread or beer or maybe a house in those days?

Peter

[Chris Perkins]

Always difficult to work out exactly. Although houses, bread and beer are essentially the same, the industrial revolution and lots of other stuff inbetween means that all those things are probably cheaper to produce now than they would have been then!

[Guest Guest]

just an idea

how much does a regular worker earns in a day in 13cents britain?

how much does a regular worker earns in a day in Britain today base on national minimum wage?

how much is the loaf of bread in 13cents Britain?

how much is the loaf of bread today the modest one?

A story men go to the field to harvest, most of the men come early,others come in med morning, the master of the field saw men hanging around outside the field doing nothing for the day, the master approach the men dont waste your time doing nothing, the men reply who will give us work for the sun is high, I will give you work, I will pay you same amout as ones who came early, then the day end, the men are reciving there wages for the day, men who came early noticed that the men who came late paid same amount as them, one of the men who came early why is that the master replied you are all workers in the field so all your wages are equal, that is one dinar for one day of work enough to feed your family,for the last part of the story at the end of the book, the Master said there will be times that a loaf of bread will cost ONE DINAR,

A days work for a loaf of bread it must be a really really hard time when does days come, for me He is the the Greatest, You can use a loaf of bread as a barometer. or how many loaf of bread can you buy for one day work.

[TomGoodheart]

what was 40 shillings Peter

Regular Army wages in 1346

Esquires, constables, and centenars 1s/day

Mounted archers, armored infantry, hobilars, vintenars 6d/day

Welsh vintenars 4d/day

Archers 3d/day

Welsh infantry 2d/day

Currently a UK Army Sergeant's pay is about £80 a day which I guess you could peg at 6d. Therefore £1 (1346) is £3200 (2006).

The difficulty with houses, beer etc is that their relative value has shifted. Beer is now a 'luxury' rather than an everyday drink. Houses are more expensive due to 'investment' potential and bread is very cheap.

[josie]

How much is loaf of bread in 14cets britain

Tom you are using seargeant can you use private for they are more in number and grass root of the payroll a foot soldier salary or so modest enough for salt.

[josie]

Premedival europe Present britain

peasant became infantry man minimum wage earner

2d per day/loaf of bread 6 to 10pounds*8hrs=60 to80/loaf of bread

find there ratio, result will be fraction almost perfect number

use the base line peasant and minimum wage earner for majority

use loaf of bread for stable food if not use potatoe

if appicable plus minus correcting factor of silver troy ounce then and silver troy ounce now,

[Geordie582]

use loaf of bread for stable food if not use potatoe

if appicable plus minus correcting factor of silver troy ounce then and silver troy ounce now,

You would be pushed! Potatoes didn't appear until the 16th century!

[josie]

Thank You Geordie, so the stable or staple food then is loaf of bread, last upto now, for a infantry man can afford the loaf of bread so the minimum wage worker can also afford it, unless that britain is now a middle class society which they are the majority the base was change then the calculation well have a different result, so it is important what base you are going to use, between 14cents britain and present britain the number of bread bougth for a day work will also determine the purchasing power of the money in 14cents britain and in present britain this ma also conclude the value of money then and now, if some one know the value of loaf of bread in 14cents britain you can know which era is well off, or do it in reverse how do you calulate the value of bread in 14cents britain,

[Chris Perkins]

I don't think you can use bread as any kind of indication. In the 14th Cent. bread was all handmade by bakers, who obviously had to be able to charge enough so that they could support their families, buy their yeast, weat and fuel for the ovens etc.

In 2006 bread is made in huge factories and distributed to huge supermarkets in huge lorries, so the price of bread, which is just a few pence for a cheap loaf must be lower in real terms that it was in the 14th century.

[josie]

But bread is a stable or staple commodity then and now, before anyone buy something he must have food or loaves of bread to last for the day since it is mass produce today it means that it is cheaper but should be divided by wages ratio, let say 50pence or 1pound for loaf of bread today, 48 pounds that is 6 pounds * 8hrs the bottom end 48 pounds or 48/50pounds for the upper end 10pounds * 8 hours is 80 pounds or 80/50pence, for 14c britain 2d/loaves of bread, then how many 2d/loaves of bread in 40 shillings then that amount or number of loaves of bread to be converted in present britain in a day work which is 48 pounds bottomend and 80 pounds for upper end.

[scottishmoney]

But bread is a stable or staple commodity then and now, before anyone buy something he must have food or loaves of bread to last for the day since it is mass produce today it means that it is cheaper but should be divided by wages ratio, let say 50pence or 1pound for loaf of bread today, 48 pounds that is 6 pounds * 8hrs the bottom end 48 pounds or 48/50pounds for the upper end 10pounds * 8 hours is 80 pounds or 80/50pence, for 14c britain 2d/loaves of bread, then how many 2d/loaves of bread in 40 shillings then that amount or number of loaves of bread to be converted in present britain in a day work which is 48 pounds bottomend and 80 pounds for upper end.

I agree on bread being a staple commodity then and now, however factor that bread is considerably cheaper now than it was then. I pay about 50p for a loaf of bread. It is a pittance to what a worker must have paid for bread, probably a smaller loaf, back then. Food production, from growing crops to the end result was much more difficult back in the 14th century than it is now. Prices were much more consequential as a result. Even in the 1960's prices when factored by wages vs. prices of commodities were much higher than they are now in the beginning of the 21st century.

[Geordie582]

Perhaps the only consistant thing would be the relative cost of war?

[TomGoodheart]

The price of bread in 13C England was also regulated heavily in terms of quality, weight and price by the state to ensure that people could afford it. You could buy a loaf for 1/2d but this doesn't really equate to what a halfpenny would buy today based on the RPI.

Bakers costs were carefully calculated to allow fro stagginf, material costs etc. As Chris says, it's too different today to meaningfully compare.

Even the cost of war is different. Nowadays it's a state affair and governments can borrow in different ways from when Kings had to levy the poor via the barons etc. to buy a halberd!

Edited October 7, 2006 by TomGoodheart

[Sylvester]

This is a very interesting subject, and it is very difficult to translate 14th century purchasing power into modern purchasing power.

It might be interesting to look at the coins themselves. Pick a 14th century coin at random and multiply that value by roughly 7 (it's 6 with some and 8 with others, 7's the median) and you'll get a similar sized coin of the same alloy in the 19th century;

E.G;

Quarter Noble = 20d (in 14th C. terms) x 7 = (140d) which is rougly the same size as a Victorian half sovereign at 120d (19th C. terms). [bang on with a conversion factor of 6]

Half penny = 1/2d (in 14th C. terms) x 7 = (3 1/2d) which is roughly the same size as a Victorian groat at 4d (19th C. terms). [bang on with a conversion factor of 8]

Groat = 4d (in 14th C. terms) x 7 = (28d) which is roughly the same size as a Victorian florin at 24d (19th C. terms). [bang on with conversion factor of 6]

So give or take a rough idea of the weights and values, anything in 14th C. prices might well be 7 times that figure in 19th C. prices.

Quite how well that holds up though i dunno. You'd have to compare 14th C. living costs with 19th C. living costs and see how it goes, but you have to take into account that the Industrial Revolution and improved technology of the 19th C. will have made somethings easier to produce and thus cheaper.

Translating 19th C. to modern should be quite an easy task as i'm sure quite a few websites deal with late 19th early 20th Century living standards compared with modern standards.

[scottishmoney]

I have read somewhere that English soldiers in Scotland during the reign of Edward I were paid 1d a day. Highly skilled labourers were paid 2d a day. Not a lot of bread could be purchased with that.

[josie]

As Geordie mentioned the cost of war, this is one of the past event that took place in the past that affected the lives of men then soon affected thier living, as for the things get unstable in every misfortune not sure whether they will be one in the future, for europe including britain suffer severe strike of misfortune from war,famine and plaque for its population is one of the smallest in the world, for now they are one of the richiest continent, For me this topic is very interesting because it does not only cover the value of troy ounce of silver or gold in that time for it is very handy to have one, or how much money the goverment have, it goes upto the stalple food that may not become stable in time of troubles,it goes more on what are the situation of britain in 14c and at present and where it is going, what are thier priorities in life as for all the cases maybe it is always a barometer of staple food the end product of commodity for someone to survive as I said ONE DINAR CAUSE A ONE DAY WORK for in the forum mentioned 1/d to 1d for the bad and the best example of bread how much more for 2d a day wage of infantry man, it didnt happen in your history but it is more handy if you have silver for a loaf of bread,a loaf or 2 loaves of bread will not go far for a family in one day.

[josie]

Plus and minus the ration of our population today which is 6 to 8 billion and thier staple food what if 14c britain or worst things happen today in global scale, lucky enough europe is rich.

[Guest Guest_Peter_I'm_a_Guest]

Thanks to all that replied to my original query.

The ammount of knowledge that you guys have is quite outstanding.

I now have plenty to go on!!

Regards

Peter.

[Guest Guest]

2006 Gigalo to Girls Aloud £500 a day...Now that is a job worth considering.

[josie]

infantry men 2d/1/2=4 loaves of bread ratio 4/1

army sergeant or minimum wage earner 80 pounds/.50=160 ratio 160/1

very well off today.

the increasing value of gold and maybe silver today is for me alarming.

If the US money is lossing its value for me it will have an effect especially in developing country.

For me its not the value of gold but the question on the value of US money upto a point they will liquidate all their gold in their mint to somewhat maintain their economy.

Any additional info why US dollar is going down.does it will have an effect in world economy and in the economy in EU and ASIA even some countries have high value against US dollar.

Are we heading in 14c with all inflation or it just a matter of time?

[scottishmoney]

The US government is not going to eliminate any gold to stimulate the economy. If anything they are more likely to seize gold again like they did in 1933 and make gold ownership illegal once more.