Discussion on 1858/3, and if that variety exists

[SilverAge3]

I have read through Michael Gouby's discussion of 1858 pennies.
He seems to feel there are no 8 over 3.
I may side with him. His reasoning seems sound.

https://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htm

 

I have looked at current ebay offerings of 8/3, none of them look promising as specimen.

A couple examples (yes sellers make wild bs claims, nothing new)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/177731430716
https://www.ebay.com/itm/336379281950

 

There was a graded example on Heritage, but I'm not convinced it is an 8/3, either.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-victoria-penny-1858-3-/a/3015-24982.s

 

Anyhow, has there been more supporting evidence come forward? Do you think there are examples, or do you agree with Michael?

[SilverAge3]

From the graded example

[SilverAge3]

Genuine 3 from 1853 (via Michael's website)

[SilverAge3]

I realize the title should specify pennies. Lazy omission. If any mods are able to edit that, I would appreciate it.

[SilverAge3]

I found another supposed example graded by NGC, for sale on ebay

Frankly picture is too grainy to help.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/137154063942

Edited March 22 by SilverAge3

[SilverAge3]

Another graded example, this in PCGS slab. Possibly something under there, but I side w Michael it does not look like 1853's "3", the shape is wrong.

 

https://ebay.us/m/veFOIB

Edited March 22 by SilverAge3

[SilverAge3]

Another raw claimining 1858/3
Looks similar overdate to one in PCGS, at quick glance. Die crack that PCGS one does not have.

https://ebay.us/m/59lIoN

 

(Both this and the one in PCGS have hair ribbon-like things, which I recall theories being die clashes. PCGS one even has extension to hair curl's end).

[jelida]

Yes, some people continue to describe an 1858 5/3 for various nondescript overstrikes, doubling etc but it has long been suspected that a genuine 5/3 doesn’t exist. Perhaps likely candidate for Bramah 25B 5/3 is what Gouby describes as 5/? with the protrusion on the left within the lower loop of the 8. There has been suggestion that 25B is over a 2, though of course 1852 pennies were never issued and the survival of an 1852 die for six years until use is also unlikely. That doesn’t eliminate the possibility of an erroneous digit punch being used in a die repair though.

Jerry

Edited March 22 by jelida
Typo

[jelida]

53 minutes ago, jelida said:

Yes, some people continue to describe an 1858 5/3 for various nondescript overstrikes, doubling etc but it has long been suspected that a genuine 5/3 doesn’t exist. Perhaps likely candidate for Bramah 25B 5/3 is what Gouby describes as 5/? with the protrusion on the left within the lower loop of the 8. There has been suggestion that 25B is over a 2, though of course 1852 pennies were never issued and the survival of an 1852 die for six years until use is also unlikely. That doesn’t eliminate the possibility of an erroneous digit punch being used in a die repair though.

Jerry

Just revisiting my 1858 5/3 or 5/2, perhaps this was Bramah 25B. Pic attached. Note the limb to the left of the top loop of the 8.

Jerry

[Rob]

Does it exist. I'm on the side of a definite maybe. To explain my reasoning, if they can resurrect an 1841 halfpenny die to continue producing 1839 proof sets in the 1880s by changing the date, then I see no reason to not find an 1853 penny die hidden away somewhere that they decided to reuse after 5 years. Both types are ludicrously common and liable to have things coming out the woodwork many years later. After all, it is the cleanest modification you could use to change the date. 8/3 or even 3/inverted 3 with the correct font size/profile in the right position and at the perfect force applied level could also conceivably work, and as Jerry suggests, it could just be a case of wrong punch, wrong time.

When all options are exhausted, even the impossible/irrational/unlikely etc. is possible. I guess the answer lies in contemporary evidence. But that needs a ouija board (and someone who believes in the alleged comminucations etc)