possibly fake gold coins

[Mr T]

Any opinions on http://numismatics.org/collection/1980.109.1037 and http://numismatics.org/collection/1947.129.1?

The first one looks like it has the wrong sort of wear and I think is fake. The second one looks okay but according to the notes is a hollowed out container, though it looks like a real coin was used.

[1887jubilee]

Grief; if they are duff my whole collection is probably suspect. On the other hand the 1887 £5 is one of the most forged coins.

[Rob]

There was a piece written about the 'Beirut' copies of 1887 £5 & £2s that came out of the middle east in the 60s. Attached are a couple of images showing the approximate die axis of the two copies and the bit that was written. Note the milling differences for the £5.

FWIW, I think the £2 looks a bit iffy and the weight is low.

Dodgy 1887 5 pounds.docx Doesn't seem to want to load

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Rob

[Rob]

FEATURE

The counterfeiting of British Victorian £5 gold coins in the 1960's

The Public Records Office, Kew, has been recently given a "make over" and renamed the National Archives. Here are deposited the record books and official files of the Royal Mint. British law usually allows these to be examined after thirty years. One of these files, prosaically named: "Requests for examination of £5 pieces", Ref.2, allows us to find out about the glut of counterfeit £5 pieces which entered Britain in the late 1960's.

The file is documented to cover the periods 1965 to 1969. It starts with a request, in November 1965, from the Customs and Excise to the Royal Mint to examine a 1887 £5 gold piece. This piece was one of a number imported from Kuwait by a Mrs.Akel, a Birmingham jeweller. It was alleged she was selling these pieces on to other small jewellers in the English Midlands. G.P. Warden, a principal scientific officer at the Mint, reported the piece was a counterfeit. This was based on the low weight and density of the piece, the incorrect number of millings on the edge and a number of visual defects on the coin. From the density of 17.05g/cc Mr.Warden estimated that the coin contained about 89% gold as against the 91.66% found in the genuine coins. The file contained a photograph of this coin and it is reproduced below.

Photograph showing the 1887 Jubilee gold £5 ex. Mrs.Akel

Type	Weight	Density	Millings
Mrs.Akel counterfeit	39.7204g	17.05g/cc	188
Genuine coin	39.87549 to 40.00507g	17.45 to 17.55g/cc	184

The file does not detail the visual faults of the counterfeit but examination of the photograph reveals a number. On the reverse, the body of St.George had not been completely "made" during the striking operation. Both The file does not detail the visual faults of the counterfeit but examination of the photograph reveals a number. On the reverse, the body of St.George had not been completely "made" during the striking operation. Both sides contained a large number of pimples and depressions. The pimples were especially noticable on the table next to the body and leg of St.George and on the bottom part of Queen Victoria's veil. There is also a small die crack visible near the top right hand side of the I of Victoria.

 

[1887jubilee]

Has anyone got an authenticated 'Beirut' copy for sale please.

[Mr T]

On 3/21/2021 at 11:55 PM, Rob said:

FEATURE

The counterfeiting of British Victorian £5 gold coins in the 1960's

The Public Records Office, Kew, has been recently given a "make over" and renamed the National Archives. Here are deposited the record books and official files of the Royal Mint. British law usually allows these to be examined after thirty years. One of these files, prosaically named: "Requests for examination of £5 pieces", Ref.2, allows us to find out about the glut of counterfeit £5 pieces which entered Britain in the late 1960's.

The file is documented to cover the periods 1965 to 1969. It starts with a request, in November 1965, from the Customs and Excise to the Royal Mint to examine a 1887 £5 gold piece. This piece was one of a number imported from Kuwait by a Mrs.Akel, a Birmingham jeweller. It was alleged she was selling these pieces on to other small jewellers in the English Midlands. G.P. Warden, a principal scientific officer at the Mint, reported the piece was a counterfeit. This was based on the low weight and density of the piece, the incorrect number of millings on the edge and a number of visual defects on the coin. From the density of 17.05g/cc Mr.Warden estimated that the coin contained about 89% gold as against the 91.66% found in the genuine coins. The file contained a photograph of this coin and it is reproduced below.

Photograph showing the 1887 Jubilee gold £5 ex. Mrs.Akel

Type	Weight	Density	Millings
Mrs.Akel counterfeit	39.7204g	17.05g/cc	188
Genuine coin	39.87549 to 40.00507g	17.45 to 17.55g/cc	184

The file does not detail the visual faults of the counterfeit but examination of the photograph reveals a number. On the reverse, the body of St.George had not been completely "made" during the striking operation. Both The file does not detail the visual faults of the counterfeit but examination of the photograph reveals a number. On the reverse, the body of St.George had not been completely "made" during the striking operation. Both sides contained a large number of pimples and depressions. The pimples were especially noticable on the table next to the body and leg of St.George and on the bottom part of Queen Victoria's veil. There is also a small die crack visible near the top right hand side of the I of Victoria.

 

Sorry for the late response - thank you, very helpful.