Elizabeth Half Groat on CCF.

[Michael-Roo]

Unusual.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=385496

[Rob]

New one for me.

[Matteo95]

Also, the V of CIVITAS seems to be an A upside down

[Michael-Roo]

Yes, I've just read that over on the other forum. A most unusual little coin. 

[Rob]

I'm not too fussed about the inverted A for V as this occurs on a regular basis across many reigns. The I over a cross however, is somewhat more intriguing as it looks to be a style of cross which I am struggling to find used on Elizabeth's coins. It's not the same cross as that seen on top of the crown and it's not a letter X because this would have to take the form of a cross pattee saltire, which is most improbable. That leaves us with a cross pattee of a style that harks back 300 years. Is anyone into medals that could possibly find a use for such a cross?

[Michael-Roo]

I'm loving this. It's what my end of the hobby is all about.

I thought the CCF post worth sharing here and, as usual, Rob kicks off with a spot on observation.

The word 'unique' is so often used incorrectly but if a coin is an only known (or, to date, noticed) surviving example of a die does 'unique' apply?

[Rob]

Currently unique is probably more appropriate given the tendency for more examples to come to light once a new type is discovered. That guy had it for 10 years before he noticed. It's reasonable to assume that others have been similarly overlooked.

[Rob]

The closest I can come up with is the cross on the orb at the top of the crown on P&M shillings, or the one below that. That's possible because the crown was made of composite punches. e.g. this one that was on AMR

Edited November 1, 2020 by Rob

[Michael-Roo]

 

That certainly does look to be a likely candidate. The size would probably match too.

 

[jelida]

Could it not simply be ‘I’ over horizontal ‘I’,  with the horizontal ‘I’ on the punch partially closed in before the correct letter was struck? I appreciate it is difficult to tell from the photo, but that would be a practical explanation and beyond doubt were the horizontal letter an ‘N’ or an ‘A’. 
 

Jerry

[Rob]

I don't think so because the serifs at the end are much wider than the connecting bar, which looks to be very thin in the middle section. The I is a normal size, which on a halfgroat is small relative to the letters on larger denominations, but there isn't a lot of downsizing possible in the letters, with only 3/4d, 1d & threehalfpence as possibilities. On these you are still looking at a wider I than seen, if it was one. But thinking out loud, a datal 1 on a three farthings is smaller, so should probably be added to the mix even though the serifs are not usually that much wider than the upright.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Rob

[jelida]

Take away the correct ‘I’,  and I don’t think much persuasion would be needed that the horizontal was an erroneous ‘I’ partially closed in by locally working the die. As the die maker will have had an ‘I’ punch in hand, it just seems more probable an error to me. But as so often in our hobby, there is likely not a definitive answer. Decent high magnification photography might give clues.

Jerry