token or what ?

[Matteo95]

Hi all!

On an Italian forum, a member posted the images of this object. Clearly, it is not an authentic groat but anyway it looks old, do you know what is it? 

I thought that it could be a contemporary imitation or a token (or jeton) 

 

[Matteo95]

thank you all in advance   

 

 

[Coinery]

I wonder if it’s a contemporary forgery? It looks to be masquerading as a London coin if the LON in the outer quadrant of the reverse is taken into account?

[craigy]

I like that, do they have the equivalent of PAS in Italy

[Matteo95]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:19 PM, Coinery said:

I wonder if it’s a contemporary forgery? It looks to be masquerading as a London coin if the LON in the outer quadrant of the reverse is taken into account?

Thanks, it could be and I admit that when I wrote contemporary imitation  I was meaning contemporary forgery, however, due to the gothic style of the legends and the colour of the flan make me think that it couldn't be accepted at the time

8 hours ago, craigy said:

I like that, do they have the equivalent of PAS in Italy

No, we don't have. In Italy, there is completely different legislation on m.d. finds etc.. and a tool like the PAS would be quite useless. 

I think that an equivalent of PAS can't be found in any other country. 

[Coinery]

Most of the people who lived by groats in that period couldn’t even read, let alone decipher legends and fonts.

As an aside, it was only a couple of hundred years later in the Jacobean period that they were uncertain enough of the previous monarch’s coinage that they felt the need to scratch Elizabeth’s shillings with X often XII so they weren’t mistaken for other denominations (my theory anyway).

Also, how many of the later generations (say the Elizabethans) would recognise a genuine 200 year old groat from a forgery, when there are coin collectors today that make that mistake over and over again on eBay?

We’d have to consider that the OP coin (if it’s a contemporary forgery) may even have been made to fool an Elizabethan audience? I feel pretty certain it would’ve stood up even in early medieval England anyway...just thinking out loud.  

[HistoricCoinage]

It looks to be an imitation of a Henry VII halfgroat (depending on diameter). I'd not think it's contemporary, it looks somewhat soapy which makes me think it's been cast and deliberately 'aged' as I see this a lot with the Westair pieces people modify before listing on online auction sites.

[Coinery]

1 hour ago, HistoricCoinage said:

It looks to be an imitation of a Henry VII halfgroat (depending on diameter). I'd not think it's contemporary, it looks somewhat soapy which makes me think it's been cast and deliberately 'aged' as I see this a lot with the Westair pieces people modify before listing on online auction sites.

Interesting, but wouldn’t you cast copies from a real coin, rather than go to all the troubles of making up punches and getting the legends ‘spelled’ out all wrong?

[Coinery]

Just rechecking the photos, it looks groat-sized or Matteo has very small, lady-like, hands?  

[HistoricCoinage]

2 hours ago, Coinery said:

Interesting, but wouldn’t you cast copies from a real coin, rather than go to all the troubles of making up punches and getting the legends ‘spelled’ out all wrong?

 

True. Maybe it's the light and metal that makes it look porous then.

[Coinery]

Looking even closer it appears there might be delamination (and break away) between what could be an independent  obverse and reverse casting?

[Coinery]

Just now, Coinery said:

Looking even closer it appears there might be delamination (and break away) between what could be an independent  obverse and reverse casting?

 

[copper123]

Is it obvious what metal this coin is it does not look like silver , could it be pewter and toned over the years before it was found?

Looks a bit like cast pewter which puts it in very dodgy ground

[jelida]

It appears to have a core exposed in places which is subject to bronze disease, therefore a copper alloy. I wonder if (in common with many contemporary denarius forgeries) it is made from a high tin bronze, possibly the surface tin enriched by copper leaching. High tin bronze looks passably silver when polished. I have previously found forgery denarii of very similar appearance, and suspect this is a late Mediaeval  equivalent , being a copy of a groat or half groat. Tin plating on copper alloy is another possibility. It does not look modern to me.

Jerry

Edited March 16, 2019 by jelida