Edge on the 1804 BoE dollar?

[seuk]

What does the edge of a typical 1804 bank dollar looks like? Flat or slightly rounded – and are traces of the original Spanish-American edge design often or rarely visible?

Two of my counterfeit BoE dollars. The left one with a rounded trapezoid shaped edge, and the one on the right almost flat.

[Rob]

Not sure. The pieces I have had were slightly rounded in parts and not struck in a collar designed to impart a well struck up design to the edge, i.e. there was a good chance that the original edge would have been visible, or at least in part as a loose collar appears to have been used. Taylor's restrikes were all struck with a collar as far as I am aware.

Attached is an example I used to have which you can see has evidence of the collar, but equally is rounded in other parts. That's why I think they may have used a slightly loose collar. The coin had undertype, so was not an iffy one.

[seuk]

Thanks!
A loose collar sounds right, since the 8 reales 'blanks' diffrenced in size and 40,41 and 42 mm dies were used for the BoE dollars - I guess the 8 reales were not even uniform within these 3 size variations.

[Rob]

2 hours ago, seuk said:

Thanks!
A loose collar sounds right, since the 8 reales 'blanks' diffrenced in size and 40,41 and 42 mm dies were used for the BoE dollars - I guess the 8 reales were not even uniform within these 3 size variations.

There's no guarantee the underlying coin was even an 8 reales. Several types of coin were used as witnessed by the US$, French ECU etc, so a uniform diameter and thickness was never a given.

[Paulus]

50 minutes ago, Rob said:

There's no guarantee the underlying coin was even an 8 reales. Several types of coin were used as witnessed by the US$, French ECU etc, so a uniform diameter and thickness was never a given.

I didn't know that, interesting ...

[Rob]

They used whatever they captured from the French or Spanish. There was no obligation to return US or Italian currency to their repective issuing countries. A reasonable assumption is that whatever coins are known for the counteermarked issues, so you would expect at least the same types for the five shilling dollar

[Paulus]

18 minutes ago, Rob said:

They used whatever they captured from the French or Spanish. There was no obligation to return US or Italian currency to their repective issuing countries. A reasonable assumption is that whatever coins are known for the counteermarked issues, so you would expect at least the same types for the five shilling dollar

Yes that makes sense, thanks Rob - ever seen evidence of a non-8-reale host coin on an 1804 dollar?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Paulus

[azda]

Here is my coin Seuk, you can see the undertype on both OBV and REV of this, on the OBV over REX and REV from the date going clockwise. Unfortunately i can't give anymore details on the rim as it's not to hand plus it's in a slab. Does an undertype mean its kosher? The Chinese can replicate anything these days

Edited January 13, 2017 by azda

[seuk]

That's a nice one azda! There should be a possibility to find a contemporary counterfeit stamped on a genuine undertype - but I think these are extremely rare if yet in existence at all. I'm not really into modern counterfeits, but an underlying design can of course be forged if there's a profit in it...

I think I got a little wiser since I'd not given the collar much though at first. However it seems a key to validate if a counterfeit was made by casting or struck using a die transfer technique. I have a number of contemporary BoE dollar counterfeits which I've regarded as cast in the past since they are of official design, but smaller and less detailed as one would expect from a cast. At least some of them now appear to have been made by a die transfer method.

[azda]

3 hours ago, seuk said:

That's a nice one azda! There should be a possibility to find a contemporary counterfeit stamped on a genuine undertype - but I think these are extremely rare if yet in existence at all. I'm not really into modern counterfeits, but an underlying design can of course be forged if there's a profit in it...

I think I got a little wiser since I'd not given the collar much though at first. However it seems a key to validate if a counterfeit was made by casting or struck using a die transfer technique. I have a number of contemporary BoE dollar counterfeits which I've regarded as cast in the past since they are of official design, but smaller and less detailed as one would expect from a cast. At least some of them now appear to have been made by a die transfer method.

Tis may be of some use to you @seuk The author is on CCF 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/251-3060932-0341269?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Counterfeit+Portrait+Eight-Reales%3A+The+Un-real+Reales+

Edited January 14, 2017 by azda

[seuk]

I already have a copy