1806 farthing - variety?

[mrbadexample]

Afternoon all. Just trying to confirm whether this is P1398 with the incuse dot on the shoulder drapery. Sorry about the lousy photos. Thanks in advance. 

MBE

Edited May 17, 2016 by mrbadexample
Forgot to say thank you.

[mrbadexample]

Is this it?

 

[Rob]

Yep, that's the dot. No sign of a K, so P1398 it appears to be.

[mrbadexample]

Thanks Rob. I was confused about the K because I couldn't make it out on the photos on Colin's site. This has a K on the reverse. Do the others have a K both sides or just on the obverse?

 

[Rob]

The K by the shield is the signature for that die, just as the K on the truncation was his signature for his obverse die.

Going off on a tangent, I wonder if the incuse dot dies were made after 1806. I have always assumed the late Victorian coppers didn't have ww on the truncation because supplies of Wyon (d.1851) engraved dies had run out, or at least the master punch was defunct, leading to some refurbishment by persons unknown. If there is any evidence for striking farthings post 1807 using old dies made good, or new dies made inconjuction with a foreign order, then it would be appropriate to omit the K because he didn't do them. CHK died in 1810, so this is a possibility, in which case one candidate would be Philp, who was at Soho at the time working on the Bank Tokens.

Discuss.

[mrbadexample]

Which might suggest this is one of those restrike thingies? 

Edited May 17, 2016 by mrbadexample

[Rob]

No. Those are usually struck to proof standard, or at least close to. I was thinking in terms of something to alleviate a shortage of circulating coin, possibly in the early 1810s when there was an explosion of tokens resulting from a shortage of currency. Timing would be convenient re Kuchler's death and using old dies would not be unusual as the date was not important.

[copper123]

That dot is very small - first time I have ever seen one of these  good pic.

This is one of those varieties that most farthing collectors dont bother with - not sure why

[Colin G.]

4 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

Thanks Rob. I was confused about the K because I couldn't make it out on the photos on Colin's site. This has a K on the reverse. Do the others have a K both sides or just on the obverse?

 

I will get a better picture on it! 

[Colin G.]

Also worth noting that both design types (incuse/raised curls) can be found with the incuse dot on drapery

[mrbadexample]

2 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

I will get a better picture on it! 

Just one of your nice magnification links will do please.

[mrbadexample]

4 minutes ago, Colin G. said:

Also worth noting that both design types (incuse/raised curls) can be found with the incuse dot on drapery

So mine is first bust with incuse dot? Is that still P1398?

[fourmack]

I beleave I have both --but how do I insert images as my smallest is 14kb as it will not accept over .49kb

 

Edited May 18, 2016 by fourmack
added

[mrbadexample]

4 hours ago, fourmack said:

I beleave I have both --but how do I insert images as my smallest is 14kb as it will not accept over .49kb

 

I just use Paint to resize them, or you could post a link to them maybe? I'd like to have a look.

[azda]

4 hours ago, fourmack said:

I beleave I have both --but how do I insert images as my smallest is 14kb as it will not accept over .49kb

 

You should be able to upload 500kb per post

[fourmack]

Well it worked today ---crazy?

[fourmack]

bigger

[copper123]

Interesting idea about the 1806 farthings being produced over the years and put into circulation later ie up to 1812 or so , this would not really be unusual or unacceptable to the public at the time who were probably more interested in needing the small change at the time .

Peck wrote a lot on these times and I am sure he never knew everything as records were 170 years old by the time of his book

Also remember the surply of copper was to say the least intermitant at this time with the navy having first call as they were protecting us from the french and Napolean

[Rob]

There would be no problem using the wrong date as the issues of cartwheels would testify. These were struck after 1797 but the date didn't change.

[copper123]

Yep I remember reading that in my BMC which sadly went astray in a house move 15 or so years ago