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I'm trying very hard but this image upload thing is beyond me - last go!

Denomination = Penny (UK) Diameter = 29.20mm (1.149â€) Weight = 8.60gms Material = Presumably bronze Edge = Vertically milled. Initial thoughts. To be honest my initial, initial thought was throw it away it's a load of tat but then a distant memory of something from “English, copper, tin and bronze coins in the British Museum, Peck†(ref; second edition) surfaced. P 420 notes a few specimens of Pennies, halfpennies & farthings 1860 to 1868 having two numbers scratched on the field of the obverse. According to Garside this relates to first impressions submitted for approval therefore making each one unique. Peck goes onto note three examples in the BM; 1618 (63) 1627 (40) 1636 (99) After emailing xxxxxxx I was pointed in the direction of the BM collection online but sadly there was limited information and no images. The only additional information gained was a weight range for the three of 9.54gms to 9.85gms. This may eliminate my item as being related to those however, the mention of first impressions or trials by Garside “may†reconcile the fact that this coin is poorly struck on the obverse, not struck on the reverse, undersize (although the earliest suggestion for the bronze penny was 1.200†according to Peck and this is very close) and underweight. It has a sharp vertically milled edge which the 1860 to 1967 issue of Pennies did not. Could it possibly be a trial of a different edge type which was not adopted? I think the only progression could be made by comparison of the numbers scratched onto the three mentioned above with the images of mine. Note I'm assuming it's “65†but I suppose it could be “59â€

Thanks, I'll get round to a photo today probably but if nobody has seen the BM examples or there are no images available then I can't see any image of mine will help.

I'm working on a troublesome Victorian Bun-head penny which "may" be a trail as noted by Garside. Essentially it's a faint obverse strike, blank reverse, measures 1.106" which is closer to 1.2" than 1.213" and has a distinct sharp vertically milled edge. Not to forget the "65" deeply scratched onto each side. I know, where's the image. I'll get round to it, but I handle thousands of pennies each month so am fully aware that we shouldn't jump at shadows.

Forgot to mention it's not just the chinese. Israel and Spain have been faking for decades and their copies are everywhere also. Gold for the former and basically anything old and Spanish, Spanish colonial, Portugese etc for the latter.

Fake no date 20p's are abundant at Cheshire car boot sales. I've no interest in the original tbh, the most overhyped waste of money ever! so wouldn't be able to say how good they are or what the differences are, they seem passable though.

It was a common school experiment to mercury plate money before the dangers of mercury plating were discovered. To be on the safe side I immediately bin anything like that.

Don't forget it's not just China. I recently perused a collection made by a Spanish gentleman whilst living in Spain in the 70's and 80's. Nearly all the gold and large silver were fakes, some good and some poor, even down to a Kennedy Half Dollar! Apparently he'd been buying from the same Spanish source over the years. As he had recently died and he had assumed his collection to be genuine therefore his family had also assumed so it wasn't a very nice situation.

A single sixpence!!!! Last week a client showed me a page advert in the Mail from Coincraft. Can't remeber the specifics but it was a bag of cupro-nickel tat for some ridiculous price. The picture used showed coins worth less than £1.00.

Nice to see you're that passionate about a "foreigner" residing in Buckingham that you took the time to find and post that picture. There are obvious defences but with someone such as yourself I won't bother trying to reduce the number of syllables. I tend to avoid xenophobes. The fact remains the man fought in World War Two and deserves better than having the piss taken out of him by a nobody who'd probably claim ptsd on day one of any conflict. Regardless of his title I deal on a daily basis with the decresing few and if anyone took the piss out of any single one of them I'd feel the same. I am mightlily fcking offended. How many of your customers are of the same age?

Can we re-title this thread to "Taking the piss out of a 90 year who served in the Second World War"

Don't want to sound too obvious or patronising but we have confirmed that these are the undated on both sides type and not just the new design?

Hi - The last one I sold, late 18th century can't remember the date but I'm not aware of any distinctions, was in similar condition and went for £40.00 if that's any help. Dave

I'd personally put this down as a childs comic giveaway, ie you rub certain bits, onto paper with pencil, then turn it and things appear. Could be totally wrong but I have seen similar in the past. Lots of luv Dave

Hi - If this is the same coin that was listed on eBay with some ridiculous claims originating from the local press then you may find that some of us have already contacted you and that this coin has been "discussed" here already. If not then please ignore. Dave.

I put it down to genuine stupidity. I've been offered somewhere in the region of 50 to 100 of these and from day one I've turned them all down. Prices quoted have ranged from a serious £5,000,000.00 (he geuninely thought that was what he would get and that I was trying to rip him off by quoting £30.00 right up to the point where I said I wouldn't buy it anyway even at £30.00). Only yesterday I had a text saying £3,000.00, no offers, and an address to post the cheque to :-) These people genuinely believe the undated 20p's are worth a fortune!!!!!!! Oh well, at least it's calmed down a bit and eBay seem to be removing the total rip off merchants although in my opinion anyone who's bought a genuine undated 20p for more than £20.00 has been ripped off :-(

Just to point out that eBay sellers cannot legally refuse a return under the distance selling laws, regardless of whatever wording they use. There should be a report listing link somewhere on his listing if anyone wants to do the honours.

Lol a replacement "6" and not a particularly good one!!! Don't think much his grading either. A fine reverse and an approaching VF reverse doesn't = VF

Blimey if you can get £2.00 melt for a Shilling could you please pm me with details - thanks

Hi - It is is a Shilling but I'm afraid it's silver value only on that at about £1.00

Hi, it's a contemporary forgery but don''t despair there is still a market for them.

As mentioned finding something good early on in your detecting creer is essential to maintaining moral. I was extremely luckly in that the fields surrounding my house at the time were liberally scattered with roman finds. My first Roman coin was a Denarius of Augustus ca 4bc and my first Hammered a Groat of Queen Mary all within sight of home. Luckily one of the best detectorists in the north west lived a few doors away and we detected almost daily until his death, when I stopped detecting. He had found an absolutely amazing 32 Roman brooches on this local farm! and at the time of his detah we were working on two Denarius hoards (small and possibly purse drops) and two hammered hoards, one of which was also possibly a purse drop. The sad thing was that weeks after his death a local metal detecting club believed they knew where the hoards were and arranged a rally to clear them out - they were in totally the wrong areas and found nothing. I found this disrepectful and on mentioning it to the club secretary was told "well he's dead isn't he". Anyway back to the plot. If you don't drop lucky on the first farm you detect on all I can say is make freinds with some of the local detectorists. Bill and I detected with a lady who was exceptional at gaining permission - if all else fails I know from experience that farmers will give permission to a woman where a man has failed infact I don't think Joy was ever turned down and toward the end we had permission on around 30 farms. Also important is your machine - you absolutely definitely totally have to have the ability to filter out iron, if your finding any iron at all you've got the wrong machine. With me it's a Minelab Explorer or nothing!! Oh and finally always record your relevant finds with the finds liason officer who work for the portable antiquities scheme. Everything Bill and I found was logged and it really is important for future research although more often than not I had to identify the coins for them. I've got to get back into it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There might be a paper in this "World War effects on UK Coinage" It would mean rummaging through my voluminous scrap bins as all my cracked threepences have gone in there so on reflection I can't be bothered :-(

Hi - We can rule out Roman as it's made of lead. There is a slight possibility that it's a Roman pan weight but it's much more likely that it's a private issue token as mentioned as they are very common detector finds. I've been agonizing over whether or not to get back into metal detecting again and keep putting it off. I'm in Cheshire which isn't a bad county for Roman activity although finds of coins here are generally 1st and 2nd centuries therefore not as common as the 4th century areas where the AE's were lost in their thousands. Still I'd rather have a Denarius than a field full of Constantine loose change any day!

Has anyone ever looked into this. I'm referring to the noticable flaky cracks that occasionally appear on the reverse. Would these be considered to be die flaws caused by the low quality steel used in the dies due to the wartime shortage and the make do and mend philosophy or are they perhaps an indication of lower quality nickel brass? Any theories?