1908 Pennies - Is Freeman mistaken?

[Accumulator]

I've been struggling with the various 1908 penny die combinations for a while and more than once found myself making an assessment, only to change it later. On a couple of occasions I have also queried another member's (Bronze & Copper Collector) opinion.

I'm beginning to wonder if part of the problem is an error in Freeman's book?

Without going through all the various combinations, and just focussing on the two reverses for the moment, we have:

Reverse C - E of PENNY aligns more closely with the first N

Reverse D - E of PENNY aligns more closely with the P

According to Freeman, reverse D is significantly more common.

Turning to VR Court's study, Freeman reverse D is called 'Reverse A' and Freeman reverse C is called 'Reverse B'. Here the latter is quoted as nearly 5 x more common, so the complete opposite to Freeman's assessment.

Was this simply an error by Freeman in assessing rarity (unlikely) or has he actually mixed up the two reverses in his cataloguing? I'm beginning to wonder.

[Gary]

Michael Gouby has similar rarity ratings for the various combinations to Michael Freeman so unless he used Michaels Freemans ratings then both have made a mistake which seems unlikly.

Do you have a copy of VR Courts study that you could send me? Would be interested in seeing it.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Gary

[Accumulator]

Michael Gouby has similar rarity ratings for the various combinations to Michael Freeman so unless he used Michaels Freemans ratings then both have made a mistake which seems unlikly.

Do you have a copy of VR Courts study that you could send me? Would be interested in seeing it.

It's HERE Gary.

[Accumulator]

Have just realised that I may be reading VR Court's survey incorrectly.... his description of the 1908 reverses is not based on the orientation of the 'E' (as they were for 1905 and are in Freeman)but purely on the tail of the helmet plume, which on worn pennies is hard to determine! Perhaps I've been spending too long staring through the magnifying glass tonight and need a break!

[Gary]

Michael Gouby has similar rarity ratings for the various combinations to Michael Freeman so unless he used Michaels Freemans ratings then both have made a mistake which seems unlikly.

Do you have a copy of VR Courts study that you could send me? Would be interested in seeing it.

It's HERE Gary.

Doh! Thanks Accumulator, had already downloaded that one, old age, the brains not working too well

[1949threepence]

Have just realised that I may be reading VR Court's survey incorrectly.... his description of the 1908 reverses is not based on the orientation of the 'E' (as they were for 1905 and are in Freeman)but purely on the tail of the helmet plume, which on worn pennies is hard to determine! Perhaps I've been spending too long staring through the magnifying glass tonight and need a break!

Glad you said that, as I thought I was being a bit thick and reading Court's article incorrectly. Mine is definitely Freeman 165, reverse C combined with Obverse 2.

Fantastic article, which I've printed off.

[Accumulator]

Have just realised that I may be reading VR Court's survey incorrectly.... his description of the 1908 reverses is not based on the orientation of the 'E' (as they were for 1905 and are in Freeman)but purely on the tail of the helmet plume, which on worn pennies is hard to determine! Perhaps I've been spending too long staring through the magnifying glass tonight and need a break!

Ok, I've established that I'm not completely mad anyway!

I think that part of the confusion is in the different cataloguing by Freeman & Gouby. For 1908 it turns out that:

Freeman Reverse 'C' = Gouby Reverse 'd'

and

Freeman Reverse 'D' = Gouby Reverse 'c'

I appreciate that they use entirely different lettering systems but Freeman presumably believes his die 'C' was used first and die 'D' was a later correction of the alignment of 'E' in PENNY, whereas Gouby's system suggests otherwise.