William III Shilling collectors

[Coindome]

I was wondering if there were any keen Shilling collectors for the 1696 & 1697 regions (B,C,E,N,Y,y) out there?

I'm interested to compare what anyone considers are the relative rarities of these coins. Ignoring all the specific varieties, (no stops, overstrikes etc), these coins recorded for both Spink and ESC don't seem to agree. (surprise, surprise).

For example, looking at 1696 1st bust only,

Spink indicates 1696B is the commonest and 1696N is rarest.

ESC rate them all as Scarce apart from 1696B and 1696Y which are Rare.

Personally I find the Exeter occuring most frequesntly and the Y hardest.

Has anyone got any thoughts on relative rarities of these coins. I know there are several varieties too which are unrecorded (or recorded glibly) but any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers

[Peckris2]

I was wondering if there were any keen Shilling collectors for the 1696 & 1697 regions (B,C,E,N,Y,y) out there?

I'm interested to compare what anyone considers are the relative rarities of these coins. Ignoring all the specific varieties, (no stops, overstrikes etc), these coins recorded for both Spink and ESC don't seem to agree. (surprise, surprise).

For example, looking at 1696 1st bust only,

Spink indicates 1696B is the commonest and 1696N is rarest.

ESC rate them all as Scarce apart from 1696B and 1696Y which are Rare.

Personally I find the Exeter occuring most frequesntly and the Y hardest.

Has anyone got any thoughts on relative rarities of these coins. I know there are several varieties too which are unrecorded (or recorded glibly) but any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

Cheers

Spink do not give relative scarcities. The only time they mention rarity is to occasionally say 'Extremely rare' instead of a price (which is shorthand for "We don't know as this coin has not been offered for sale recently"). Their values are not listed on the grounds of rarity but on current market value, which may or may not take rarity into account.

So if you want to know rarity, go by ESC.

[Coindome]

Hi,

Yes, I understand the point you make. The point I was making is that the Spink values indicate a rarity or perhaps imply a rarity. The rarer the coin the more expensive.

Look at 1697 3rd bust. The Spink price for the 'y' is cheapest of all 1697 3rd busts whereas ESC rarity states 'C' should be more common.

See what I mean? or perhaps Spink feel a lot of 'y' have come to market whereas 'C' haven't !!

Cheers

[azda]

Hi,

Yes, I understand the point you make. The point I was making is that the Spink values indicate a rarity or perhaps imply a rarity. The rarer the coin the more expensive.

Look at 1697 3rd bust. The Spink price for the 'y' is cheapest of all 1697 3rd busts whereas ESC rarity states 'C' should be more common.

See what I mean? or perhaps Spink feel a lot of 'y' have come to market whereas 'C' haven't !!

Cheers

Spink is quite a general book, i would say 80% of people go by the prices inside the book. A dealer for example would sell at Spink prices but would want to buy at 50% of those prices. I think the only time people actually bid to book is when a coin is really rare such as 1905 Shilllings or 1854 shilling/sixpences etc.

Collectiing varieties is quite a specialist theme because not everyone does so, you may have bought a coin because of its rarity value in whatever denomination you collect, but for a general collector it wouldn't matter if its 6 over 9 or so and so mint etc.

ESC will always be your best bet for silver as its more of a specialist book for silver,unfortunately it doesn't give prices, just rarity levels, hence Spink do make some huge prices for more common coins for some reason and for others we collectors would consider rarer, they have crappy book prices, but as i said, most people tend to go by Spink for the price value as not everyone has an ESC plus ESC gives no values.

Edited November 7, 2010 by azda

[Peckris2]

The point I was making is that the Spink values indicate a rarity or perhaps imply a rarity. The rarer the coin the more expensive.

I'm not a collector of Willy 3 shillings (though I'd love a decent type example for my collection), but the general point stands : Spink value purely on what coins fetch in the market. This includes perpetuating rarity myths (1942/3/4 silver threepences) and non-rarity myths (1894 halfcrowns) etc.

Also don't forget the kind of customers like me - a type collector - who distort the market from a rarity POV. To explain : people like me will want a 1902 shilling or halfcrown in BU for our type collection. They are plentiful, that's why. But because they are plentiful, type collectors will chase them and hence their prices are artificially high in relation to rarer issues.

I would agree that high prices in Spink may well indicate rarity trends, but it's by no means a given.

[Rob]

It's difficult to assess the relative rarities because you need to consider only those that crop up in general sales. Complete collections coming to market distort the numbers because a collector will only want one example of each variety rather than a number in proportion to the numbers extant.

The provincial mints are not very common in high grade and so most examples must remain hidden within the numerous bulk lots at the end of the auction catalogues. The only individual examples in a sale will be high grade unless exceptionally rare which will also skew the data. I have a feel for what seems to be difficult in high grade, but whether that is representative of the populations as a whole is open to debate. In my opinion, Bristol is the commonest followed by York, Chester and Exeter of similar scarcity with Norwich being the hardest in desirable grade.

[Coindome]

Brilliant. This is all interesting stuff. Is anyone aware of any studies, publications or focus on this issue?

Cheers

[Rob]

Brilliant. This is all interesting stuff. Is anyone aware of any studies, publications or focus on this issue?

Cheers

It has probably been done by a few people over the years, but unless published remains an unknown quantity. You tend to focus on the really rare ones if you are trying to complete a series because the others come along in time and so very few people will bother to do the spadework. It's a lot easier to quantify the rarity of the rare pieces because they will usually be noted as a rarity. In comparison, the common ones may not even be described if in a bulk lot.