1799 halfpenny - variety or die defect?

[German]

First I'm sorry for my English - it's not my native language, so some mistakes and corrigendums will take place I'm collector from Russia, St.-Petersburg. My subject is UK and British colonys coins.

It's a very simple coin of course but one detail attract my attantion. Please take a look at 3 dots at right side of a shield at reverse. Also similar dots are at obverse - is it variety or some die defect? I've never seen anything like this.

thanks a lot.

German

[Chris Perkins]

Just as a quick aside German....How big are you? I may have some previous business partners in St Petersburg and you could perhaps pay them a little visit for me to remind them in a friendly and yet persuasive manner about the money they owe me!

Only joking.

And a very warm welcome to another decent Russian....that's 2 so far!

[German]

common view

Just as a quick aside German....How big are you? I may have some previous business partners in St Petersburg and you could perhaps pay them a little visit for me to remind them in a friendly and yet persuasive manner about the money they owe me!

Only joking.

np - just PM me pls and we'll try to find your previous business partner in St.-Petersburg

And a very warm welcome to another decent Russian....that's 2 so far!

thank you

[Rob]

First I'm sorry for my English - it's not my native language, so some mistakes and corrigendums will take place I'm collector from Russia, St.-Petersburg. My subject is UK and British colonys coins.

It's a very simple coin of course but one detail attract my attantion. Please take a look at 3 dots at right side of a shield at reverse. Also similar dots are at obverse - is it variety or some die defect? I've never seen anything like this.

thanks a lot.

German

All the Soho mint output had these or similar features on their currency copper. The pieces dated 1799, had a raised dot on the truncation. The 1797 pennies and twopences had K with 3 dots in a triangle on the truncation. The 3 dots on the shield are common to all the varieties of 1799 currency halfpenny but the farthings have a single dot only. There are 3 raised dots on most currency 1797 pennies and twopences except for one penny variety which has 3 incuse dots on the rocks.

For the 1806 and 1807 issues K (for Kuchler) replaced the reverse dots and is found between the bottom of the shield and the trident shaft. K with or without a dot was used on the truncation for the pennies, halfpennies and farthings but one variety of current 1806 farthing has an incuse dot only.

There were a large number of proofs and patterns for all three denominations and which resemble the currency pieces dated 1797, 1799, 1806 & 1807 but which had different marks such as K in italics with or without a dot or rows of dots etc. You are unlikely to encounter these accidentally. All pieces dated other than the above are patterns.

[German]

Rob, thanks a lot!

One more question - what was the point of those marks?

[Gary]

Hi German, welcome to the forum.

Rob, are you saying that all 1799 currency halfpennies have the three raised dots on the Obv? or have I misunderstood?

I have a currency 1799 halfpenny on which I can find no dots at all, Obv or Rev.

Cheers.

[Rob]

Rob, thanks a lot!

One more question - what was the point of those marks?

As far as I can make out they were akin to a signature - certainly the ones on the truncation and probably the reverse too. Droz on the early Soho pieces put a D, D F or DROZ F on the truncation or reverse and these are certainly a signature. Most of the Kuchler proofs and patterns have a K on the truncation and this obviously means Kuchler. The dot or series of dots clearly replaces the initials and I can only hazard a guess that they were put on as some means of identification, possibly to differentiate between currency and special strikings. That is only a guess and not cast in stone because the copper proof struck from currency dies (Peck 1253) has a single raised dot on the truncation as you would expect.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Rob

[josie]

Welcome german.

[Rob]

Hi German, welcome to the forum.

Rob, are you saying that all 1799 currency halfpennies have the three raised dots on the Obv? or have I misunderstood?

I have a currency 1799 halfpenny on which I can find no dots at all, Obv or Rev.

Cheers.

No. The currency 1799 1/2ds have a single raised dot on the truncation and three on the rocks to the right of the shield. Sometimes the reverse dots are virtually non-existent, even in mint state, but there is usually at least a trace of one. The dot on the truncation rarely seems to show any signs of weakness although it's size varies considerably as does its position. It is of course possible that the occasional die would not have this feature although I have never seen a coin without one. The varying position of the dot suggests to me that it may have been entered after the bust was punched in unless there were a seriously large number of bust punches. Again this is only conjecture as the output of 1799 halfpennies was significant although I don't have the figures to hand.

Edited January 29, 2007 by Rob

[German]

thank you very much, Rob