Unusual Elizabeth I threepence

[Richard2]

Can anyone help me with this hammered found last week. I know it’s in very poor condition, but what caught my attention was the size of the shield on the reverse. It’s looks unusually large for a threepence. Mint Mark is Pheon, and date I think is1561, although the one isn’t clear. Spink list two types ,large flan,(inner circle 15mm) and small flan (inner circle 14mm). I’ve measured this one and the reverse inner circle is 15mm and the obverse 14mm.

As yet I haven’t been able to track another threepence down  like it

thanks in advance Richard

i

 

 

[davetmoneyer]

No problem with this one, 1561 large flan issue (15mm) S 2564, don't have my threepence book to hand but will get a better id later

[Coinery]

Bust 3F

Reverse is Large Flan BA-a with lions 20 and lis 8

obverse is 332 legend, with one complicating factor for me, that the rose looks oddly like the large rose 4 rather than the smaller rose 5 we would expect for a large flan obverse???

if we agree the rose is 5, your coin is BCW  BA-1B:a

But I think it’s a mule BA-3B:a

[Richard2]

Thank you both, although I didn’t understand a word you said Stuart 😂. What reference work are you using so I can have a look. Overall flan size is 18mm if that helps.

[davetmoneyer]

just checked my book Galata Guide to Threepences The coin corresponds to DIG 1ii/Aii,  in BCW it is BA-1A (BA-1Ba has a colonstop after ELIZABETH and BA-3Ba has the smaller 14mm inner circle, The rose is 5 there is damage to the top of the rose making it appear as a large rose. There are probable die duplicates in my collection (rn 144) and in the J Hullet (desc) collection no 3. There are listed 10 examples of that obverse and 2 of that reverse

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by davetmoneyer
addendum

[Coinery]

I reckon that’s a large rose, Dave. Will come back with evidence that supports...in my opinion you couldn’t fit a wider rose in that field even if you wanted to!

off to bed now, just finished night shifts, happy Easter weekend to you and all.  

[Richard2]

Thanks guys, I didn’t realise Galata had done a book on threepences, and you wrote it Dave I believe. Looks very concise, but a little out of my price range for coins I don’t find many of.I also looked in some BNJ publications on Lizzie coins and found very little that was of help only that BA stood for broad arrowhead ( pheon) .

so quite a rare coin then Dave?

[davetmoneyer]

Hi scarcer than the smaller flan issues so it just falls into the rare bracket 

[Coinery]

OK so here goes. Firstly the OP coin is definitely not a large flan obverse die, and without even looking for a die match I think we can clearly see that from the first of the below images, in which I also encircle the rose, which is definitely the large Rose 4 - the third coin in the row is also a regular flan, but with rose a 5 for comparison.

The second row of three coins are regular flan 3ds which have the large rose 4 - I think the proportion of the OP bust, relative to the inner circle, and relative to the rose, indisputably show that it is the same type as the second row of images, namely a regular flan die with large rose 4.

The third row of coins are large flan 3ds with rose 5 - from those 3 images we can get a good idea of scale to compare with OP coin.

So I 100% stand by my mule classification BA-3B:a namely it's a large flan reverse paired up with a regular flan obverse. BCW lists one muled pairing of this type, but not this particular obverse legend, making it unrecorded by them, and rare regardless.

The punctuation wasn't included in my classification because BCW don't use it, saying themselves that it has no significance, other than I guess in identifying die matches and maybe for further micro-organising the series?

Phew! Glass of wine and shower - you might recognise one of the large flan coins, Dave?  Have a good Easter.

[Coinery]

[Coinery]

[Coinery]

What are your thoughts, peops?

[Richard2]

Wow, thanks for that, please excuse my ignorance,but the shield reverse, is that from a groat die or similar or were some threepence struck with that size shield as I’ve still not found one on tinternet

[Coinery]

No they were intended 3d reverse dies, made with the large shield. I can’t post the reverses of the large flan coins now because i’m off the PC. Will put them up for you tomorrow.  

To be honest I think Dave had only noticed the dark shadow of the inner petals of your rose. In all fairness the outer petals are poorly struck up, damaged, and obviously very worn.

[Richard2]

Ok thanks, one last thing, what is the BCW reference you mentioned earlier please

[Coinery]

http://www.galata.co.uk/store.asp?storeAction=showDetail&stockID=6511

I can’t get the link to work, but you can buy the book from Galata 

Roll over large image for zoom

The Hammered Silver Coins produced at the Tower Mint during the Reign of Elizabeth I I D Brown, Chris H Comber and Walter Wilkinson, with photographs by Paul Withers. Published by Galata Print Ltd., Llanfyllin.  2006, the latest revised edition, 2016, with corrections and additions. PB  84 pages.  A4, 210 x 297mm.   Detailed tables of all privy marks, legend variations and die pairings.  Clever detailed line drawings of bust varieties.  Photographs in b&w of all denominations. Covers the English, Irish and East India Company coins.  New.   This highly detailed book begins with the a history of the coinage of Queen Elizabeth I. This is followed by tables of all 11 denominations of the English coins and their various busts, initial marks and where dated, their dates.  Then tables of all six of the Irish coins and their initial marks, etc. Then the 8, 4, 2 and 1 testerns of the East India Company coins.  Then there are enlarged line drawings of the punches used for all of the coinages. There is a bibliography.  The book ends with five appendices: List of privy marks; Indentures; Records of Pyx trials; The research collection, and Estimates of the number of coins struck.   Published by Galata Print Ltd., Llanfyllin.  Silver coins of Elizabeth I.  English silver coins. Irish silver coins.  East India Company silver coins. Catalogue number 6511 Quantity Price £30.00

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Coinery

[Richard2]

Thanks Stuart, I will have to buy that now

[Richard2]

For such a poor conditioned coin that nearly got consigned to the scrap silver hammered box it certainly is a coin out of the ordinary, one to keep I think

[davetmoneyer]

Hi Had a second look at your phots and now concur, I had seen the centre of the rose only . Re Checking the book I am certain that the obverse is 14 mm ic DIG 8i, there are two dies with the triple stop after BETH and large rose, there are 4 other specimens recorded from die 8i, -  the BM, Chris Comber, DIG collection 165 and one that was in Michael Trennary's lists G132 Aug 1987, none of these specimens being muled with 15mm ic rev, Could you send me a hi rez scan and weight to dave@grunal.com for inclusion in the upgrading of my book. I recognised the middle of your 15mm ic I bought that one from George coins 5 years ago!, Could you send me scans and weights of the other two, the last one appears to be a new die for my listings with single pellet after Regina

[Coinery]

1 hour ago, davetmoneyer said:

Hi Had a second look at your phots and now concur, I had seen the centre of the rose only . Re Checking the book I am certain that the obverse is 14 mm ic DIG 8i, there are two dies with the triple stop after BETH and large rose, there are 4 other specimens recorded from die 8i, -  the BM, Chris Comber, DIG collection 165 and one that was in Michael Trennary's lists G132 Aug 1987, none of these specimens being muled with 15mm ic rev, Could you send me a hi rez scan and weight to dave@grunal.com for inclusion in the upgrading of my book. I recognised the middle of your 15mm ic I bought that one from George coins 5 years ago!, Could you send me scans and weights of the other two, the last one appears to be a new die for my listings with single pellet after Regina

Morning, Dave, yes I sold you that one, along with a few others, a very nice triple date springs to mind.

Sadly I haven’t access to the other 2 15mm coins, I simply snaffled them from the internet without credit (not very academic I know) for the purpose of this post. I’ll take another look at the source to see if they are available for weighing and imaging for you.

Glad we cleared it up...rooting about on coin sites, and digging around in books is just about my favourite thing ever.

Have a good weekend!

[Coinery]

12 hours ago, Richard2 said:

For such a poor conditioned coin that nearly got consigned to the scrap silver hammered box it certainly is a coin out of the ordinary, one to keep I think

Absolutely, and how cool to have it acknowledged as a new variety in the future editions/addendum of Dave’s book!

 

[Richard2]

Many thanks to both of you for putting in the time and effort. Dave ,if you like I can send the coin to you to have a better look. Off out now to do a spot of metal detecting,see if I can find another one😀

cheers Richard 

[davetmoneyer]

Hi rez scan ( pref 1200dpi) and weight are all I need

[Richard2]

No scanner but will have ago with my camera

[Richard2]

I went along to the Worthing numismatic society meeting this Thursday as a guest which is pretty local to me, interesting evening with some members displaying their collections of numismatic items of interest. It wasn’t till the end of the evening ,when he had gone,that I found out Chris Comber had been there. I think he’s a life long member. Next month he is giving a talk on the pattern shillings of Elizabeth I at the society ( 3rd Thursday of the month) So this will be the ideal time to take my Lizzie 3d along for him to see. Will update you after.

Richard