coinkat

It sold for over $10,500 with the buyer's premium. And no, I was not the lucky winner despite my best reasonable efforts

Dix Noonan Webb had one about 8-10 years ago.

In on the plastic. I was thinking the Remain side would prevail and there would be a substantial effort at reform. Perhaps Brussels turned into something that was just not part of what was initially anticipated and past efforts at reform may have left an impression that was just no longer an option. I was under the impression Cameron thought the referendum would be a compelling way to create a mandate to remain and make it work. Even the Labour Party leader was in the remain camp thinking reform was possible. Not sure how this will unfold but uncertainty creates greater problems and if Article 50 needs to be used to expedite the separation to create stability then one has to conclude that is why it is there- to be used in the event it is needed. As for the possible new leader of the Conservatives... not sure. At the moment and as others have pointed out, we are having our own problems across the pond which are quite unfortunate. I look back over the past 75 years and look at some of the brilliant candidates that sought the Presidency and their campaigns fell short. And fast forward to 2016- several have turned in their graves with the one certain candidate that is an embarrassment to civilization. He needs no introduction...

Unfortunately, I do not have the benefit of seeing these in hand which is not helpful. Let's start with the other NGC 62. Average strike with softer lustre that features what looks to be a die break on the obverse starting at the A and going into the lower bun of Victoria's hair. And there looks to be slight die break issues at the base of Victoria's neck which leads me to believe the coin is likely a later die production. The surfaces could be original with modest signs of cabinet friction. And 62 seems reasonable for the images we have to work with. Azda's coin clearly looks to be an early strike given the slight PL surfaces with well struck devices- especially the reverse. From the image, it does look as if a 62 seems harsh. So what keeps this from a higher grade? The impression that the coin may not have original surfaces- it may have been dipped given its appearance. A coin with PL surfaces will usually magnify the slightest bag marks or other surface imperfections. While I am not seeing anything, surfaces that have a PL look can cut both ways in terms of the grade. And based on the grade, it seems probable that the state of the surfaces did not bolster the grade for Azda's coin as one mights expect. Both coins are attractive. Preference on these will largely depend on what a collector seeks. Here we have the same coin with contrasting strikes with a differing appearance. I would suggest that the majority of collectors would prefer Azda's coin, however, there are some that would be drawn to the other if it looks good in hand. So how did they both wind up in 62 holders? Again, that is where the subjectivity comes in that includes the range that exists even within the 62 grade or even at another grade level. So what is my point? Not all coins were created equal even within the same grade and this comparison really magnifies this hypothesis. I suspect some may find this to be rubbish- I am not trying to influence or change opinions

While comparisons are fine, there remain subjective components that will influence which 1854 Shilling one may select. The picture of the other is not really helping with the analysis. Owning an 1854 Shilling within the MS spectrum is not an easy accomplishment.

Interesting comments and examples. Within a grade such as MS63, there are going to coins that are high examples and examples that received the benefit of the doubt at that grade. Coins are not created equal. We often look at coins within a series a compare coin x with coin y and think- How can these be at the same grade? Collectors seem to look at plastic thinking that one service is better than the other. Even a comparison between the two coins may not be an "apples to apples" in that the coin in the one slab could easily be better than the other. So even though both coins make the same grade, it really is the look and quality of the coin and not the plastic that dictates the value. What is disappointing is that this concept seems to be lost on those that merely look at plastic and not the look of the coin which is far more significant. So the plastic discussion as tot he better service is really is nothing to get excited about- keep looking at the coin and understand why the coin is holdered at the current grade. Make a determination if if is truly a quality coin for the grade- if not, look for one that meets your expectations.

It depends what you are submitting- At first that my not sound helpful, but let my explain. If you have die variety or even a die variety that is a condition rarity, I would not likely submit it unless I confirmed with them first that they will recognize it and can make the correct attribution. And many British varieties unfortunately are just not recognized by either service. With respect to most coins through the reign of Edward VII that could grade MS64 and higher that are clearly attractive, I would submit. NGC is fine- so is PCGS. Don't loose sight of the fact that it is about the coin and not the plastic. Also keep in mind that the Sheldon scale and grading in general in the US is different that in the UK. Develop an appreciation of that difference.

Terrific coin Rob-

Nice coins with excellent images. Ozjohn- your image really captures the portrait detail. My example was graded by PCGS and graded 63- not great but good enough. I seem to have found better Matte Crowns than Matte Half Crowns of this date.

Just to share a few thoughts on this- The guarantee of authenticity is part of the bargain of getting the coin graded. So should the coin not be genuine, NGC seems to be the party that Heritage and the consignor will direct you to in an effort to resolve any dispute. I agree that the has a look about it that creates questions- In part that combination just may be exacerbated by the image and even by honest wear. Wreath coins have been counterfeited for decades. And the best ones were actually done 50-65 years ago. My point is that I tend to doubt that this was done in recent years in the event this does turn out to be a counterfeit. I would much rather see the coin in hand before even offering an opinion. It is absolutely essential that you leave the coin in the slab- do not remove it under any circumstances.

Wonderful coin Paulus- And your example illustrates the point quite effectively.

Grading George V coinage is usually a challenge mainly in view of the striking characteristics and die wear. And perhaps the bigger problem that is often left out of the discussion is the relief with the high points having a flat appearance. Most collectors look at the strike with lofty expectations that are just unrealistic. The biggest challenge with collecting coins in general is looking back from the 21st century at coins that are a product of the past. As much as I like this era in GB history and it's coinage, there are limitations in terms of the survival of quality. And a mint state coin just may not have that quality collectors expect. It is easier to be critical in hind site instead of appreciating what remains even if it misses the mark in terms of being this fully struck example that really exists more in dreams than in reality.

Nice looking example- I have been working on a set- not quite half way

The image of this 1734 Crown really illustrates the difficulty in finding a well struck example of this high relief portrait. The mintage for the young head examples are low and did not even circulate much back in the day

Any George II Shilling images to share...

The 1666 Elephant is more available - I would estimate somewhere in the low 100s.

I would have suggested a lower number- likely under 40 and under 5 or 6 in EF or higher. Since you mentioned the 1665 Crown, what do you think the surviving population is for the 1666 elephant?

pokal02: Just curious... what do you see as the surviving population for the 1697 crown? I ask mainly because I am curious as to the total surviving population verse the surviving population in a relative high grade. I see the 1697 crown as rarity. However, maybe there are more low grade examples that exist that I just don't know about. And maybe there are more than I suspect that survived but in a lower grade.

There was an EF40 graded by PCGS that was featured in a Stacks-Bowers auction about 3-4 years ago- I believe it sold in the $6,000 range. I was able to see the coin before the auction- In hindsight it was not a great numismatic moment for me by choosing to pass

Rob- In all fairness, in the 2012 Spink the 1697 Crown was listed at 17,500 pounds in EF. Even at 47,500 pounds in EF that is just not reflective of its rarity. If it were a US coin, it would easily be $300,000-$350,000, if not more which is significantly more than Spink's current valuation which has escalated 30,000 in roughly four years. There is little interest in promoting British rarities and this is one of the better examples that comes to mind. And yes, there are others in all denominations.

The series of Crowns from the reign of William III may contain one of the most underrated Crowns- The 1697-

Unfortunately, I have not have enough experience with George I Crowns to rank them with a high degree of confidence. I do agree with your thoughts- especially as to the 1726 being the hardest. I suppose if we wanted to make this even more of a challenge, we could rank by condition rarity. That is where the real fun and disagreements will likely surface.

My mistake- It is one terrific coin I have a 1673 Farthing graded MS62 by NGC- I think I submitted it over 15 years ago.

I am not attempting promoting TPG, just sharing images of my coins that I thought would be of interest here. Collectors have different objectives and it is up to the individual collector to determine what role TPG may have, if any, in their collection. Rob, we can agree that grading has a subjective component. And that likely will not change in the foreseeable future. Grading remains a process that is used to best describe the state of preservation of a coin- And really should be subject to efforts to improve the process. Such efforts should seriously consider the variation in the strike of a coin, the dates within a specific series instead of applying a one size fits all approach. While subjectivity will never be eliminated, it seems that we can make the process reflective of the times. Nice Farthing- And I would like to see the reverse before offering a definitive opinion. However, in looking at the high points and the fields, I would likely call it MS.

Thanks for your comments Rob. The only MS coins were the 1902 Crown, 1893 Crown and 1698 1/2 Crown- all those graded 64. Before posting the grades, I thought it might help to have some thoughts as to the look of these coins, the good the bad and just plain old thoughts as to how these measure up to what a collector anticipates for a certain grade. To answer your questions, I suspect your observations likely are why both the 1902 and 1893 did not grade 65. The 1698 1/2 crown has a terrific look-not sure the image really captures the coin. Part of the problem with early milled coins is expectations. These coins are a product of the times. Collectors and graders sometime just miss the obvious in terms of the strike and quality which includes haymarking among other challenges of the time. A 64 grade for that coin is fine... the look is better in hand. Part of what i wanted to share is that obtaining a 65 grade with certain British coins is very difficult. The 1734 Crown graded 58- It is clearly is not mint state, but how often does one see a George II young head crown that has an original look? I should add that I have a Mint State example of this date that was graded by NGC. And there is a significant difference. My point here is merely to show the challenge of finding a well struck example of this high relief coin. And the 1758 Shilling was posted mainly because there was a nice image to share. It is a common coin but still worth sharing.