Jester

Ha! Why can't individuals get in on the fun? NGC and PCGS, you're on notice...there's a new kid on the block. The slabs can be purchased on eBay and the label looks like it was done on a home printer...sad. You know I enjoy TPG coins but even this makes me shake my head. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Isle-of-Man-Farthing-1839-AU-KM-12/142550029480?hash=item2130a4d4a8:g:lnoAAOSwySRZ0sj4

I think your Caps Lock got stuck there for a sec ...my apologies, I was trying to assist.

Wow...I had no idea you could buy coins using Facebook. Can anyone recommend pages/groups they use/frequent? Another interesting buying alternative that's getting off the ground here in the U.S. is Great Collections (www.greatcollections.com). It combines aspects of a traditional auction house with those of eBay and it's for coins and currency only. For example, eBay gets a straight 10% of the final sales prices from the seller while the buyers pay nothing more than the winning bid plus any shipping costs. Then, PayPal wants their 3% of your sales price. So as a seller, go ahead and knock 13% off the winning bid. Great Collections on the other hand only takes 5% from the seller (nothing if the final sales price is over $1,000) but the buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium. Great Collections mails checks to the sellers so the 3% taken from PayPal is also eliminated. So it's really a win-win. Great Collections gets to put a bit of coin in their pocket, the seller is only losing 5% (at most) of the final sales prices versus 13% and the buyers/collectors get access to some nice coins without having to pay the 20+% buyer's premium that traditional auction houses charge. One caveat...all coins sold on Great Collections are slabbed/graded (I can actually hear multiple eyes rolling from across the Atlantic ). The nice thing is if you want to sell your coins on Great Collections (versus eBay) but they're raw and you don't have a TPG account, you can send them to Great Collections and they'll have them sent to the TPG they believe will yield the best grade and ultimately, sale. It's mostly U.S. coins which I like because once a week or so, I'll go to the site and type "Great Britain" in the search field. Since the majority of bidders are there for U.S. coins, I've picked up a few nice numismatic British coins at a bargain. Not sure if they ship overseas but if you find something you must have, I'd be happy to facilitate getting it to you and at the lowest possible shipping cost. I've started doing this as a favor to help out my numismatic brothers and sisters on TSF as many U.S. based dealers don't ship overseas or if they do they charge an arm and a leg (I'm a strong believer in Karma). Anywho...if you all can point me to a FB group selling coins you like, I'd be most grateful. Hope you all are having a great weekend! - Carson (Jester)

I think you may be missing a digit or two. I plugged 432498 into the PCGS Registration Verification page and this is what came back...

Thanks for the feedback Pete. Yeah, I figured while I look for the right Low Tide Halfpenny, I'd pick up a nice High Tide to fill the 1902 Halfpenny spot. One thing to keep in mind is while the 1902 High Tide may be common and can easily be found in high grade /well struck quite cheaply in the UK, it's a different story on this side of the pond. And while I do enjoy buying from British dealers, the trans-Atlantic shipping can sometimes make it more cost effective to pick up something like this example from a reputable American auction house like Heritage (the winning bid was $32 [£24.44] before the juice). Think about Morgan Silver Dollars. I could make it rain Morgan Silver Dollars if I wanted to but from what I understand, they're a bit harder to put hands on in Europe. Not saying you can't get them but I can walk in any LCS and they'll have a large selection. Trying to find this 1902 Halfpenny though in my neck of the woods could be an exercise in futility. Pricing can vary depending on what you want. The slabbed/graded 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad I shared in another thread had the special Mexico label (an extra $5) and a scratch-resistant slab (an extra $5) on top of the standard grading fee of $17 for Modern coins (US or world coins 1955 to present [no patterns, die trials, etc.]. Maximum value $2,000). Plus a standard $8 handling fee plus return postage. I was essentially prepping that coin for marketing knowing what spending a bit more might yield in return. For the numismatic coins we collect, you'd select the Standard grading tier (All US or world coins. Maximum value $3,000/each) and that's $35 for world coins along with the $8 handling fee and return postage. I usually select the standard brown label without the scratch-resistant slab option to keep costs down. So it can be pretty costly to submit one coin at a time for grading but some of the costs (the handling fee and shipping) can be dispersed if larger submission are made. That's one of the reasons The Silver Forum puts together their group submissions that brings shipping down to a negligible amount and the handling fee pretty much disappears. If we look back at that 1902 EdVII Halfpenny I picked up, I paid $51 all in. If I had a raw specimen sent in for grading 1) I can have an educated idea what it should grade at but as we've recently discussed, there are no guarantees and 2) it'd cost me conservatively $40 just to have it graded. So picking up a nice MS 63 RB already graded for $51 shipped was worth it to me. I hope that helps. Thanks again for your feedback Pete. Always a pleasure talking with you! Have a great Friday afternoon.

Another for my EdVII 1902...Looking at Spink 2017, I think I got this for a good price tonight at auction. Paid $51 total including buyers premium. Nice looking coin in my opinion.

Just want to say I've really enjoyed this conversation. I hope my perspective has been interesting (at a minimum not a snooze-fest) and I've learned quite a bit from your input. While I've never been of the opinion that the folks at NGC and PCGS are coin grading gods/goddesses, as I've seen and heard of a number of mistakes they've made and will likely continue making, I was unaware that they misattribute coins and varieties. I will certainly have to view slabbed coin sales more critically looking for those opportunities. Thanks to each of you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Completely agree with you Mike regarding NGC/PCGS graders. I am not of the opinion that they are infallible and never make mistakes. In the same breath, I do not believe these companies are pulling people off the street corner and giving them jobs as coin graders. I also agree with you regarding the mark-up on slabbed coins over raw. However, as long as the disparity exists and collectors are willing to pay the elevated prices, I'll look to profit from it when the opportunity presents itself...Vive la Capitalism!

Thanks for the feedback. I truly appreciate your candor and concern. I've got quite a bit of experience with slabbing coins as well as selling them for profit. My most recent transaction was a 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad purchased early August for about $250 followed about a month later with a 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad for $120. Both were going to be key coins based on the estimated mintages for the 2017 Gold Libertad series. I sent them off to NGC for grading. The 1/10 oz BU came back MS 69 (see below) which is a good result given that BdM sends their BU coins out in bags. The 1/20 oz Proof, as you'd expect/hope came back PF 70 UC (see below). I sold the 1/10 oz on 10/05, about two months after purchase, for $750 and the 1/20 oz on 10/12, about a month after purchase, for $300. So my total outlay, including grading was about $470 and after eBay/PayPal fees I cleared a profit of $443, essentially doubling my money in less than two months. Obviously that type of example doesn't happen every week but if you watch for the right opportunity, it can be quite profitable. If a more numismatic example is desired, I picked up a 1807 African Head Napoleon 1/4F from the DNW auction in June. I think the adjustment mark (which occurred at the Paris Mint) scared bidders away and I picked it up for about £170 ($225) including buyer's premium. I sent it to NGC for grading and it came back AU 58 (see below). Looking up this coin in the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801 - 1900, it's valued at $500 in VF40 so it's reasonable to say it's somewhere north of $500 given the grade and rarity (only 41,000 were minted in 1807 before Napoleon shut it down) with only four coins in higher grade between NGC and PCGS combined. No sales price realized as I haven't sold it yet but it'll be going to Heritage Auctions next week so we'll see! I have my raw coins slabbed and graded simply because I like slabbed and graded coins. Certainly not using it as a crutch in place of learning how to grade (and I'm definitely still learning). Again, thank you for your feedback. I always enjoy hearing other members' opinions and perspectives.

Gotcha...so there are multiple rarity rating scales with different rating criteria? Ugh. Love for it to be like the Hobbit...one scale to rule them all.

IMO, Michael Marsh, author of The Gold Sovereign, has an easy to understand rarity rating guide although I'm not sure if different rarity rating scales are used with specific coins (it would obviously be Sovereigns in this case): C3 - Extremely Common C2 - Very Common C - Common N - Normal S - Scarce R - Rare R2 - Very Rare R3 - Extremely Rare R4 - 11 - 20 examples estimated to have survived R5 - 5 - 10 examples estimated to have survived R6 - 3 or 4 examples known to exist R7 - 1 or 2 examples known to exist Just another data point for consideration...

Just wanted to share a few thoughts after reading through discussions elsewhere on the Forum where some members seem to take issue with what is called an "American" phenomenon when talking about TPGs and slabbing/grading coins. Hey, maybe this did open a can of worms and Pandora's box all at the same time Another large, active coin forum on the Interweb is The Silver Forum. As many of you already know, it's a UK-based forum with the majority of its membership being western Europeans (mostly British) with a sprinkling of us Yanks and some Asian collectors. One of the most active threads across the entire forum is "NGC Grading Submissions Open" where forum members can send their raw numismatic/modern coins (sometimes in bulk) to one member who coordinates periodic, large group, submissions to NGC (God bless him for having the constitution and patience to do that). Keeping in mind that 85+% of forum members are British and EU collectors, I believe it's reasonable to say there are plenty of folks on your side of the pond as well that enjoy and find value in collecting slabbed coins. Long-standing, well-respected European auction houses are beginning to offer more coins at auction already slabbed and graded. In fact, here's a case study for us all to follow and I find this truly interesting because we can objectively track this and have follow-up discussion after it's over. I was perusing the preview catalogue for the DNW "Coins, Historical Medals & Paper Money" auction to take place on 13 & 14 December 2017. I'm looking to acquire an 1887 Crown for my denomination year set. To my pleasant surprise they already have two that will be auctioned, both in high grade. Something caught my eye though...one is in "About As Struck" condition and the other is "Almost As Struck". Both look nearly identical but the About As Struck coin has an estimate of £1200 - £1500 while the Almost As Struck is estimated at £120 - £150. That can't be right. There's no way there's that much difference between "About" and "Almost" to warrant that kind of disparity. Surely it's a typo on the About As Struck coin, it too must be £120 -£150. So I clicked on the About As Struck to see if there was any additional information and lo and behold..."slabbed NGC MS 64". So virtually the same coin almost down to identical appearance and because one is raw stating it's UNC and the other coin has been "verified" MS it will likely sell for ten times as much. If I'm a coin dealer and I can sell an 1887 Crown for £120 - £150 raw stating "About As Struck" or I can spend about £30 more of my own money and if the exact same coin comes back mid to upper MS grade it'll sell either in my shop or at auction for £1200 - £1500 (and the market will bear it, i.e., clients are willing to pay you £1200), I'll likely pursue that business model. Some may say, so what? This proves nothing. A fool and his money are quickly parted. The argument as I've seen it here is that the only people benefiting from slabbing/grading coins are the TPGs themselves. I think this would show otherwise. If you're a collector who has no interest in the future investment potential of the coins you decide collect then this may be irrelevant. So we'll see, right? It'll be interesting to track "The Tale of Two Crowns" and come back together on 15/12/17 to discuss. In closing, did slabbing/grading start in America? I assume so but I'm not 100% on that. Is there a higher concentration in the U.S. of collectors who prefer slabbed/graded coins? I'd concede that. Am I butt hurt that when critical opinions are given of slabbed/graded coins sometimes there's "American" also in the comment? No. I just want to put forward that this phenomenon isn't geographically isolated to one population of collectors. I'm also a huge fan of "to each his own" and I really appreciate and value different opinions and perspectives. So I'm interested in your thoughts. Has this piqued your interest or curiosity at all? Love to hear your take.

Thanks so much for your feedback @Leo. Really enjoying the 1902 hunt. I think the biggest expense will be the low sea level Halfpenny and Penny in high grade. The third farthing was for Malta, right? I thought it was an interesting coin and I was able to pick it up for about $25 shipped so I thought, why not (while working on the other 1902 coins). Thanks again for your comments.

OK, maybe these are a bit more interesting. Just finalized the purchase so wanted to wait until that happened before posting. 1902 Crown 1902 Florin

Nothing to blow your mind but I picked up the 1902 1/3 Farthing in good condition as part of my 1902 denomination year set.