A couple of 1860 Farthings for you to look at

[Jennings]

Hi gang,

Here are a couple of 1860 Farthings I've picked up recently off eBay for relatively cheap (under US$10.00/£5.50 each). I'm certainly no expert at grading Farthings (yet), so I wonder what you might think? Give me your raw assessment (I can take it ).

Also, can someone please tell me *exactly* where to count the berries? Is it in the laurel wreath, or in the bun?

Thanks!

Files are pretty big, so you can see as much detail as possible. If you have a dialup connection, you might not want to click. Here are links:

http://jrh.pemtel.net/FarthingA.jpg

http://jrh.pemtel.net/FarthingB.jpg

[Unknown]

Such old coins with such details! They are beautiful!

But why would you want 2? Just send me 1 of them now!!!

[Chris Perkins]

First is around VF, second is around EF.

[custard1966]

I certainly wouldn't disagree with Chris

Nice, problem-free coins.

[Emperor Oli]

The detail on farthing B's Britannia, especially the torso, is quite amazing. I would also agree with Chris' verdict.

[Jennings]

The detail on farthing B's Britannia, especially the torso, is quite amazing. I would also agree with Chris' verdict.

So, given the nicely preserved detail on Farthing B, what sets it apart as an EF from getting an UNC? I know Spink says their UNC prices are for coins with full lustre, but UNC and BU are pretty much the same thing, save for colo(u)r (sorry, I'm a Yank, and I have an aversion to extra vowels).

I'm not fishing to get anyone's opinion changed on Farthing B, just curious why EF and not UNC.

Tks!

J

[Chris Perkins]

Because there are tiny signs of wear, so it can't be UNC....

Britannia's head, lower part of the ribbon in Victoria's hair, one of the leaves in the wreath.

It's bloody good, so perhaps it's a GEF, or if it could be put down to cabinet friction, perhaps AUNC. No doubt an American would call it AU58, or even MS60 Brown!

Dare you to send it for slabbing!

[Jennings]

Because there are tiny signs of wear, so it can't be UNC....

Britannia's head, lower part of the ribbon in Victoria's hair, one of the leaves in the wreath.

It's bloody good, so perhaps it's a GEF, or if it could be put down to cabinet friction, perhaps AUNC. No doubt an American would call it AU58, or even MS60 Brown!

Dare you to send it for slabbing!

Hehe... no thanks! I can't see spending $25 to slab a $9 coin. In fact, the guy who sold it to me said it should grade out as an AU58 Red-Brown

I must say, I find the whole idea of "GEF" or "FVG" to be confusing. While it's at the root of the problem with American collecting, the numerical system is much easier to understand. I'll get it all sorted out in good time though. I just want to get a handle on how you folks tend to grade.

Thanks!

J

[Chris Perkins]

What's FVG???

[Sylvester]

What's FVG???

I guess he just proved his point about being confused.

I find the numbering system confusing like why is 58 used more than 55? And why is 59 not used or 54?

[Chris Perkins]

And what happens if one side is more worn than the other? Do you get AU58/EF45, or does it bring the whole coin down to AU50?

[Master Jmd]

What's FVG???

GVF (Good Very Fine)...hehe...FVG (Fine Very Good)

And what happens if one side is more worn than the other? Do you get AU58/EF45, or does it bring the whole coin down to AU50?

i suppose that as we sometimes use (example) 'obverse is VF, reverse is NVF' (VF/NVF), the american system would be 'AU58/EF45' as you said

[Unknown]

Once I saw a whole list of the American way of grading, and found it very confusing... I have to look for an explanation somewhere.

In the other hand, for a noob like me, the English system is very simple and easy to understand, just 6 grades from Good to Proof, very well explained in the Collectors Coins book, then you can use the + or - to indicate the range, so it has as well flexibility.

But as America is such a big player on everything, I guess we will have to eventually learn it...

[Emperor Oli]

Proof isn't technically a grade, it's the method of striking - that is, with polished dies and blanks.

[Sylvester]

But as America is such a big player on everything, I guess we will have to eventually learn it...

That's a defeatist attitude!

It's not all that much different actually.

Solid AU would be AU55, numbers in the 5X series lower than 5 (50-54) suggest a coin that we'd call AU- and numbers 5X above 5 (56-59) would be AU+.

Obviously it's more complicated than that cos our AUNC and their AU are different, cos our grading standards are tougher.

What they mean by AU is usually our EF.

It's like our but on a decimal numbering system rather than on a +/- system.

One thig i don't get though is why the VF spectrum is sooo wide.

Covers the 20s and the 30s. VF25, VF35 etc. Why are there 20 VF grades and only 10 of everything else?

Except grades below F which are all crammed in from 0 to 9. A very illogical system, devised by a copper nut so what do you expect.

They always say copper coin collectors get very very in depth (with the coins being cheaper and more widely available is it any surprise?), but to come up with a whole new grading system for one area [large cents] that then spread to the rest, from one denomination (and only the large versions of it) to everything including world coins... well it beggars belief.

[Jennings]

My, I didn't mean to open a big can of worms, but then agian, discussion and debate *is* good. While I don't necessarily *like* everything about the American system, and while I agree that it can be confusing, those grades that are typically used (the VF to "perfect" 70 grades) are (to me) easier to understand. It's true that there's a lot of ground left uncovered, and a lot of numbers can apply to a "single" grade. I think the problem comes in in that 90% of American collectors nowdays don't give a hoot less about any coin that's not at least AU58 or higher. This goes back to the slabbing discussion elsewhere. We can't be bothered with anything less than perfect (the big "we"), so anything below a 55 or 58 isn't worthy of our time or attention.

Both systems have their merits, and overall I like the 'old fashioned' British system, simply because it's more human and less perfection driven than the American system. I'm perfectly happy with a coin in a blank that's nice to look at (unslabbed, of course) that may "only" be a 40 or 45 on the American scale, but which is far less expensive and may in fact be more appealing that the "perfect" MS67 specimen that I would have to pay 30 times as much for.

Give me time and I'll learn the British system mates

J

[mint_mark]

Hi Jennings, thanks for posting your pictures and getting us to discuss them... it made me look at my 1860 farthings again. I think your farthing B is excellent. I often find it a bit harder to spot wear from a scan rather than a photograph (the lighting makes the picture much "flatter"), so it makes grading more difficult.

Certainly yours is a lovely sharp strike... I noticed that my own 1860 toothed border, although more worn than yours, is a sharper strike than my 1860 beaded border. You should try and find one of those too!

Here's a general question.... now that many collectors can have access to such high resolution and high magnification imaging systems, what effect do people think this will have on grading and variety discovery? I once read some advice which said "never grade using a magnifying glass" and it seemed to make sense... it leads you to undergrade because you see every little defect and no coin is perfect. But, using a glass is much easier, especially for older eyes and smaller coins. Now, using a camera and a monitor is easier still... does anybody routinely examine coins using images such as these? (I don't, although I have been toying with the idea).

I'm looking at your farthing in the usual places for wear and there is very little evidence... but usually it would show up mostly as a difference in colour on a coin like this and maybe it's more apparent with the light at a different angle. I would go with aUNC. I think the berries are all supposed to be in the laurel wreath and I can count 6... one at the lower front, two pairs and one at the back just above the strands of hair going into the bun.

Thanks again for sharing your pictures,

[Jennings]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your comments. I defintitely agree that the older our eyes get, the harder it is to grade, especially given the tiny size of the Farthing (and US dimes and pennies). The old optical orbs aren't what they used to be

I don't routinely scan my coins, although doing so with the more valuable ones might be a good idea for insurance purposes. As long as you store the images somewhere secure (like outside your house!) in case of theft or disaster.

J