Reproduction 1879 Crown

[colliewalker1]

I have just bought a reproduction '1879'Young Head Crown - shock/horor this coin is said to be 'solid silver'- and a 'limited edition'.

This purchase was partly to satisfy my curiosity as to what a 'proof coin' would look like - and of course a high grade original of that date would be extremely expensive.

Although I am a new collector, even I can see that the quality of the engraving is superb - Queen Victoria's hair looks as though she had just emerged from the hairdresser! It is interesting that there are freelance engravers around who can produce workmanship like this: I wonder what they are doing MOST of the time in the absence of full time employment like those at the Royal Mint - or are they freelancers, too engaged by the Mint as and when required I wonder?

Apart from the quality of the engraving an outstanding feature is the 'mirror finish'very attractive but it looks very vulnerable to scratching!

I can't see any special mark to denote a 'reproduction'( I believe this is a legal requirement?)BUT - the edge of the coin is absolutely SMOOTH although there is the usual 'dotted' milling jusat inside the cicumference.:this looks very unnatural and gives the coin a sharp feel around the primeter:surely no silver original coin would have had an unmilled edge.I would rather have seen a milled edge and some other discrete mark to denote a reproduction.

[Emperor Oli]

Any pics?

[mint_mark]

BUT - the edge of the coin is absolutely SMOOTH although there is the usual 'dotted' milling jusat inside the cicumference.:this looks very unnatural and gives the coin a sharp feel around the primeter:surely no silver original coin would have had an unmilled edge.I would rather have seen a milled edge and some other discrete mark to denote a reproduction.

Crowns traditionally have writing around the edge... usually in relief but sometimes incuse.

One exception is Victorian jubilee head crowns... I remember the first time I picked one up and said "Where's the writing?". They just have a grained/reeded/milled edge. The dots inside the circumference are usually described as a "beaded border"... the other common type is a toothed border.

Never seen a wreath crown though... someone will be able to tell us about the edge soon I expect.

As for engraving, I suspect they can do it all on a computer now and then click the die-making equivalent of "print"!

[Chris Perkins]

Wreath Crowns all have milled edges.

[colliewalker1]

Any pics?

Here is the URL for the relevant Ebay( ) page which has good photos of this repro coin.For some reason the field area has appeared as black - but it is VERY highly polished silver!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...item=3933701033

[colliewalker1]

As for engraving, I suspect they can do it all on a computer now and then click the die-making equivalent of "print"!

This is a VERY interesting thought - is it speculation or is it how engraving is really done now I wonder?

[Emperor Oli]

Engraving is still done by hand. Indeed, the Royal Mint's annual report for the last year showed on its first page a huge picture of the engraver engraving (for want of a better word) the design out in what looked to be clay. Perhaps the dies are computerised, but the base design certainly isn't.

[mint_mark]

Since the Georgian period they have used a "reducing machine". This allows an operator to trace over a large version of the design using a stylus and the machine reduces those tracing movements down to coin size and there is an attachment on the end that is actually engraving the die. I believe the die is quite soft metal at this stage and it gets chemically hardened later.

Anyway, the large version of the design being traced is what is prepared by the engraver and I think it is made in plaster. These look to be 20-30cms across in pictures. It's not someone bending over an actual coin die with tiny tools, although it must have been like that before the reducing machine.

The only reason I suggested computers is that there are plenty of computer controlled lathes and other machines around, so it seems logical that a computer could do the reducing step after scanning the plaster model. Perhaps we'll find out in the future if the circulation coins start showing blocky pixellation artifacts

[Sylvester]

The Spinks 1985 goes into some depth on this, but i can't find it!

I think they make a big copy in some kind of plaster mould then use the reducing machine to put it on the die, stamp in the letters and then harden it with acids or some such chemicals.

I'd have to look in the book to be sure.

[colliewalker1]

I think they make a big copy in some kind of plaster mould then use the reducing machine to put it on the die, stamp in the letters and then harden it with acids or some such chemicals.

"While modern coinage dies are indeed made by carving, engraving, or otherwise producing a male hub, (actually, modern dies start with a large clay, wax, plaster, or other such model, usually about a foot in diameter, which is then pantograph reduced by machine to produce the male die) from which the female coining dies are then produced"

This is an extract from an interesting article on the history of coin making - see URL below

I wouldn't have imagined the initial engraving being made on something as large as a foot in diameter!

http://tjbuggey.ancients.info/ganoskin.html