How much do you agree with politics?

[Master Jmd]

How much do you agree with politics?...

Just thought i would start this one for the pure benefit of a debate

[Chris Perkins]

Do you perhaps mean 'politicians' JMD? Politics is generally accepted as being better than the alternatives, whether you agree with the system or not.

[Sylvester]

Generally i dislike politicians and government, but we need some form of government for the reason Chris stated.

I'm never quite sure which dierection to argue this from but my own political views are a complex mixture (at times contradictory) between classical liberalism of J S Mill, and old style conservatism.

Since no modern party aspires to any of those ideals then i'm inclined not to trust any of todays parties.

[colliewalker1]

Particularly since the advent of the present government, headed by 'trust me' Tony ( ) I have come to distrust professional politicians - both for their dishonesty AND incompetence.

I equate them with sharp salesmen - never lost for words - and very insincere.

I wonder how many cabinet ministers could make a successful career in commerce? Very few - if any - in my opinion, and yet they are 'running'(joke!) Great Britain UK for heaven's sake.We would be much better served if the country could be managed by true 'Captains of Industry - well one can dream! :

[Emperor Oli]

Look at the back of his blazer. A crease - or a wire?

[Master Jmd]

Look at the back of his blazer. A crease - or a wire?

A wire...it is probably attached to a microphone or a headpiece so he can hear the audience...not nessesarily used to 'cheat' debates

[Chris Perkins]

Are you implying that the President of the United States of America might possibly be being told what to say, by someone who knows better exactly what to say? Perhaps someone with better geographical knowledge, someone who can prompt Mr Bush when he forgets the names of other world leaders etc? Surely not!

[Chris Perkins]

Or maybe he's not human, and is actually falling apart under the pressure, like a stressed out Dalak. The US President is a robot!

[Emperor Oli]

He doesn't need to hear the audience - they weren't included in the debate as it wasn't open-floor.

That's exactly what I'm saying! It would explain the awkward pauses mid-sentence and his lack of attention - telling people not to interrupt him even when they hadn't.

Is Bush wired?

[Master Jmd]

That's exactly what I'm saying! It would explain the awkward pauses mid-sentence and his lack of attention - telling people not to interrupt him even when they hadn't.

I doubt thats the reason, old men need time to think

[Chris Perkins]

If old men need time to think, perhaps they shouldn't be in charge of countries....And he isn't that old. I mean he's naturally ancient compared to all us young spring chickens.

[Coppers]

Particularly since the advent of the present government, headed by 'trust me' Tony ( ) I have come to distrust professional politicians - both for their dishonesty AND incompetence.

I equate them with sharp salesmen - never lost for words - and very insincere.

I wonder how many cabinet ministers could make a successful career in commerce? Very few - if any - in my opinion, and yet they are 'running'(joke!) Great Britain UK for heaven's sake.We would be much better served if the country could be managed by true 'Captains of Industry - well one can dream! :

The "Captains of Industry" were in charge of such firms as Enron and Global Crossings. Both our president and vice president had their roots in the oil industry and in the vice president's case more recently with Halliberton. If you Brits ever tired of Tony Blair perhaps we can arrange a trade?

[Chris Perkins]

Yes, I was going to say that Mr Bush basically represents the captains of industry, and that while those captains may certainly have the leadership skills, you cannot trust a country to in the hands of any commercial industry, for it would not be a neutral leadership.

Tony Blair has his faults, and he did really cock up over the Iraq thing, but who else is there? He'll get a third term, and after that perhaps he can go and become Governor of California and then President of the USA.

[Master Jmd]

and he did really cock up over the Iraq thing

Ooh, a tough one there...

I actually agree with Mr.Blair about the fact that a war on Iraq was nessesary. If war was not decided then Sadam Hussain would still be in power. When Sadam was in power, the Iraqi public had no choice but Iraq victory, e.g. Iraqi sportsmen/women were killed if they did not win gold in the olympics!

The situation after the war has been horrendus though, suicide bombs, car bombs, threats on the general Iraqi public, the horrific slaughter of innocent foreign people.

But then again, what is it that these terrorists want, Sadam or their own power over Iraq?

I still agree with Mr. Blair on certain aspects of the war effort.

[Chris Perkins]

But JMD, regardless of what Saddam was doing or planning on doing (or had done), the whole case for war was based on his weapons of mass dissapearance that were capable of being deployed within 45 mins.

[colliewalker1]

But JMD, regardless of what Saddam was doing or planning on doing (or had done), the whole case for war was based on his weapons of mass dissapearance that were capable of being deployed within 45 mins.

Even this spurious information referred to BATTLEFIELD weapons - whereas this was known to persons close to TB HE thought it referred to STRATEGIC weapons. What does this do for our 'leader's' credibility?

Im afraid that TB is naiive in the extreme - what about his bright idea that unruly yobs should be taken by the police to the nearest cashpoint to withdraw the cash for an 'on the spot' fine? What world does he live in?

[Master Jmd]

Im afraid that TB is naiive in the extreme - what about his bright idea that unruly yobs should be taken by the police to the nearest cashpoint to withdraw the cash for an 'on the spot' fine? What world does he live in?

Yep, i agree with that, im all for conservative

[Sylvester]

Well it was clear on that front that Tony Blair lives in a world where money is not a scare item and marching his own children to their cash machines the police would have no problem getting the right amount. March someone like me to mine and you'd be lucky, also no overdraft account neither, so what's in there is what i have, if it ain't enough for TB then what can the police do about it? Some politicians just don't think.

Anyhow he should leave the no nonsense attidude towards social misdemeanours to the Conservative party where it belongs. It's about time Tony Blair stopped trying to be Thatcher. Did M Thatcher ever admit she was wrong? did she persue unpopular policies dispite what a significant majority of the population said? did she have an attitude of never giving up and going ruthlessly on even when it was flogging a dead donkey? Did she have unpragmatic ideals that she'd stick to no matter what even in the evidence that they don't work? Now think about Blair.

A politician that has a preconcieved plan of how it should be and a stubborn refusal to make any ammendments or concessions and to believe what they say 100% even when all the evdence to the contrary is placed in front of them is a lousy politician who is very bad at their job.

[Geoff T]

I actually agree with Mr.Blair about the fact that a war on Iraq was nessesary. If war was not decided then Sadam Hussain would still be in power.

Even if you accept that the invasion of Iraq was necessary to overthrow Saddam Hussein (and I don't), the problem facing the allied powers who are still there is "what the hell are we here for now?" Saddam has gone, but Dubya, Tony et al don't even have a shred of an exit strategy.

What is needed is for a peaceful solution to the problem of eradicating a crazed dictator motivated by a warped sense of religious values who presides over a country with an appalling record on human rights and to return his land back to democracy. Then, once we've sorted out Dubya and the USA, we can perhaps turn our attetion elsewhere

[Chris Perkins]

What is needed is for a peaceful solution to the problem of eradicating a crazed dictator motivated by a warped sense of religious values who presides over a country with an appalling record on human rights and to return his land back to democracy. Then, once we've sorted out Dubya and the USA, we can perhaps turn our attetion elsewhere

Absolutely lovely Geoff!

[Sylvester]

Even if you accept that the invasion of Iraq was necessary to overthrow Saddam Hussein (and I don't), the problem facing the allied powers who are still there is "what the hell are we here for now?" Saddam has gone, but Dubya, Tony et al don't even have a shred of an exit strategy.

Totally agree.

I don't think overthrowing Saddam was a good thing at all. Sure he was 'bad' but who defines bad? The US defines anything bad that does not agree with their concept of the world.

From our perspective he sure didn't fit into the role model leader, but do you not think removing Saddam could potentially be a hell of alot more problematic that having left him in situ? Very naive to think you can move in overthrow one guy, inplace a totally new system in a matter of months and have no trouble.

We've got another Ireland situ here now and we're the ones that's getting resentment for it by sticking our noses in where it's clearly not wanted, but if we pull out they'll retaliate on themselves and on us. This situation will not be resolved now for many many years and there'll be alot more deaths.

Bush used the September 11th fiasco as an excuse to go in there and get his oil, he's got his oil and people have died because of it.

As far as democracy is concerned Iraq is a country that still has a medieval/early modern outlook on life, religion is the centrestone, heretics must be punished. Tribal warfare amongst themselves. How easy will it be to instil democracy onto a country that does not want democracy? (Can you have a top down democracy enforced from a foreign elite?), Iran overthrew their monarchy did they go for democracy when they had the chance? No they went for a Theocracy under an Ayotallah. (sp?). You can't have a sucessful democracy if the people don't want one, if you have no experience of one why would you want one, afterall it just something strange jumped up foreign countries like the UK and US do, no?

This is something Bush and Blair have clearly overlooked.

Then again is democracy the best system anyhow and why? Who said so? There's far too many preconceptions here. Nice idea in theory but do we in this country even have a real democracy when all said and done, or just Blair doing as he pleases?

[Emperor Oli]

Bush used the September 11th fiasco as an excuse to go in there and get his oil, he's got his oil and people have died because of it.

If the Iraqis start drilling themselves in Iraq, it could prove to be a very profitable venturefor them indeed. About twenty of the total eighty discovered oil fields havebeen developed for drilling, the most famous of those being Rumalia (oneof the richest fields in the world). It also has a pitiful amount of wells compared to neighbouring countries like Saudi. About 2500 wells have been drilled with just over half of those producing oil. Also, if Iraq overhauled its technology for oil which is decades out of date, production of oil with the new fields being exploited could raise the bpd by millions thus lowering oil prices throughout the world. I remember OPEC agreeing to raise production collectively by something like ten million bpd, but if Iraq starts pumping it, we could think about multiplying that number many times over.

[smudge]

Even this spurious information referred to BATTLEFIELD weapons - whereas this was known to persons close to TB HE thought it referred to STRATEGIC weapons.

Tony Blair did know this refered to battlefield weapons only, as we destroyed all his capability of long range delivery in the first Gulf war.(Scud missiles and launchers)

I spent the last 12 years of my time in the Royal Navy as an NBCD (I) Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and Damage Control Instructor. We were shown film footage of the Kurdish villages where Saddam had ordered the use of Sarin nerve gas. I wont go into to much detail but if you had seen these images of men women and children after the attacks, you may have more of an open mind on the case for war against this regime. Sarin is a particularly nasty one, ALL bodily fluids are emitted from you out of EVERY orifice in the body in a matter of minutes.

Nobody in their right mind wants to go to war, but in this case I think we were totally justified.

[emex]

Got to agree with you there smudge.

Although TB and the rest of the goverment lied through their teeth about WMD I think We were still right to go in and end the regime.

Yes, sure there still are massive problems to overcome but life still must be better than it used to be for the ordinary Iraqi.

[colliewalker1]

"Although TB and the rest of the goverment lied through their teeth about WMD .........."

THIS is the big issue - if B liar-sorry, Blair -had told Parliament and the country the position as it REALLY was it is very doubtful indeed that he would have had majority support for going to war.As he had already promised to support his big strong friend Bush, he couldn't risk not getting this approval;so with the aid of the 'real Deputy Prime Minister' - Alistair Campbell - he cooked up a false prospectus for going to war.

So is 'Trust me Tony'fit to be our Prime Minister - not in my opinion.