James I shilling mintmark inquiry

[myt]

Hi all, 

I recently bought a J1 shilling which was posted with not too much description other than the photos (did not ID mintmark). From the pictures, I believed it to be fifth bust, tower mint mark (1612-1613). The mintmark is pretty worn on the obverse, and not visible on the reverse (however, I seem to make out the general tower shape and three parapets). When I received the coin, it had a ticket which ID'd the coin as 3rd coinage, 6th bust, mm Thistle... which I am assuming is either just wrong, or the incorrect ticket for the coin? I attached two photos below to see if others shared my thoughts... after receiving the ticket, I figured I would try posting on this nifty forum. 

 

P.S. After randomly reading some threads on coin photography, please excuse the stand-free living-room-light images haha. 

 

[Rob]

Certainly 5th bust and not 6th. Could be trefoil over tower. Reverse pic?

[myt]

[Rob]

That's worse than useless! Try and tease some detail out of the obverse mark. It might have slightly more rounded petals than the attached (which is from a 6th bust coin), but the general shape will be the same with a wiggly tail. There's definitely a tower there.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Rob

[myt]

Rob, thank you for all the quick replies. Here is my best shot at detective work - before your post, I had not considered the possibility of Trefoil/Tower - I struggled and could not find another example of that exact overmark. So I grabbed an image of a mm-tower shilling offline (below), also outlined the trefoil you provided (below), and finally tried an overlay on this current coin. 

On the other hand, it seems like it would be a strange overmark as I assume converting a tower into a trefoil on a die wouldn't really fully "hide" the tower?

Any more thoughts are appreciated

 

 

 

[Rob]

The overmark doesn't have to obliterate the old mark. If they had to do this then the old mark would be polished out - it just needs to be superimposed so that the mark for the pyx period is confirmed. The different marks are not all the same size, and even within a mark there are different size punches for the various denominations. The profile of each mark can help identify an overmark, but you do need a modicum of detail to differentiate between them. In the case of your coin it was the right hand lump which leads me to think it is trefoil over tower. Sometimes it completely covers the old mark, which means you have to identify a die from the previous mark in order to say it was changed.

[myt]

Thanks for the follow-up Rob, I suppose I am going to stick with the concept of Trefoil / Tower, I appreciate you taking a look and giving some input/direction! If you have further reading on James 1 coinage to suggest, I would gladly take note (whilst I wait for my copy of BNJ Vol. 9 to arrive via snail mail).