Portuguese 40 Reis

[Richard2]

Hi, can anyone help with the ID of this coin please. My research has only lead me to the 1819 coins of Joannes not having VI after his name and this one clearly does. Thanks in advance,

Richard

[mrbadexample]

KM#365 I suggest. Suspect Krause listing (pictured) is inaccurate with regard to the lettering as other examples show the VI.

https://www.lofty.com/products/portugal-juan-vi-40-reis-1819-k365-vf-70-ebc-mbc-1-smsrz

https://www.portugalmoedas.com.pt/artigo.aspx?id=17619

[Richard2]

Hi, thanks , Krause is where I looked. Quite a low mintage at 422,000. So what would be the difference then between km#365 and km#370, apart from date.

[zookeeperz]

yours is the KM#370  JOANNES VI.D.G.  the KM#365 is JOANNES.D.G.  and the KM#371 has a different globe same as the 345.1

 

[mrbadexample]

1 minute ago, zookeeperz said:

yours is the KM#370  JOANNES VI.D.G.  the KM#365 is JOANNES.D.G.  and the KM#371 has a different globe same as the 345.1

 

No it isn't. 1819 is KM#365.

[zookeeperz]

2 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

No it isn't. 1819 is KM#365.

My bad sorry mate  must be either one of krauses famous fopars or a jeckyl perhaps?

[mrbadexample]

2 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

No it isn't. 1819 is KM#365.

Krause is full of errors (although I still think they've done a fairly decent job considering the scale of the undertaking). The first link I posted to lists as KM#365 and has the VI lettering.

[mrbadexample]

7 hours ago, Richard2 said:

 So what would be the difference then between km#365 and km#370, apart from date.

Not much, as far as I can see...

[zookeeperz]

Just now, mrbadexample said:

Krause is full of errors (although I still think they've done a fairly decent job considering the scale of the undertaking). The first link I posted to lists as KM#365 and has the VI lettering.

I don't  like to be a doom slayer but look at the position of the P of Portugal It shouldn't be at the front of the head?

 

[mrbadexample]

13 minutes ago, zookeeperz said:

I don't  like to be a doom slayer but look at the position of the P of Portugal It shouldn't be at the front of the head?

 

You might be right. Could be a contemporary forgery, or possibly just a different die. Have you checked the weight Richard2?

[Richard2]

21 minutes ago, zookeeperz said:

I don't  like to be a doom slayer but look at the position of the P of Portugal It shouldn't be at the front of the head?

 

Does look different doesn’t it

[zookeeperz]

1 hour ago, Richard2 said:

Does look different doesn’t it

you will find a lot of these foreign copies in big mixed lots they are specifically used to draw the punters in. Making you think you have a potential bargain. They know exactly what they are doing and it is the easiest way to get them floating around the marketplace. lately it seems we cannot turn left or right and the forgers are already there and getting better and better. If I have said it once I have said it a hundred times the line should be drawn now and any fantasy/replica coins have to carry R or Copy or be illegal to sell. And thethird party sites like ebay should be stung with massive fines for complicity to exact fraud as this is basically what they are doing

[Richard2]

No I haven’t checked the weight, will do tomorrow. (What should it be)

Doesn’t look or feel like a modern forgery, more likely contemporary, if it is one. I bought it a couple of years ago from a dealer at a local coin and collectors fair.

[zookeeperz]

49 minutes ago, Richard2 said:

No I haven’t checked the weight, will do tomorrow. (What should it be)

Doesn’t look or feel like a modern forgery, more likely contemporary, if it is one. I bought it a couple of years ago from a dealer at a local coin and collectors fair.

It should weigh 38 grams 35 mm and 4.4 mm depth

[Richard2]

On 15/05/2018 at 11:04 PM, zookeeperz said:

It should weigh 38 grams 35 mm and 4.4 mm depth

It is too heavy for my accurate scales so used digital kitchen scales, 40 grams, size was right, although was just using a ruler

[zookeeperz]

2 hours ago, Richard2 said:

It is too heavy for my accurate scales so used digital kitchen scales, 40 grams, size was right, although was just using a ruler

yes 2g over is I would of thought way over the tolerance . You see a lot of coins/fantasy/medalettes in the mixed lots carefully place to show enough to gain interest from would be punters. From a distance they look ok and the lots seem like bargains. Sadly that old saying always rings true. If it looks too good to be true it generally is. The bulk sellers know what they are doing and it is one way of getting these questionable coins in to the marketplace without actually selling it as a single item. I had a lot with 6 bermuda crowns and some other large foreign crowns.As soon as I opened the parcel about 20 coins flew over my shoulder and stuck to my industrial magnet lols. (authors creative licence to slightly exaggerate )

But it happens more times than not. I expect nothing so can't be disappointed. Always a surprise or 2 in those lots despite how recycled they are.

They normally get the diameters right but fail on the weight. Surprised though that you say a dealer sold you it unless he was unaware as well. I wouldn't of thought a reputable dealer would try to pull a stroke as it would finish his reputation and ultimately his business.

Edited May 17, 2018 by zookeeperz

[mrbadexample]

4 hours ago, Richard2 said:

It is too heavy for my accurate scales so used digital kitchen scales, 40 grams, size was right, although was just using a ruler

What's the tolerance of your kitchen scales? I don't think they can be relied on to be that accurate.

[Richard2]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

What's the tolerance of your kitchen scales? I don't think they can be relied on to be that accurate.

Probably not, I’ve been looking on eBay, a few on there ,with one or two 1819’s with  the VI after Joannes . Can’t be any profit for the counterfeiters in such a low value coin surely.

[zookeeperz]

41 minutes ago, Richard2 said:

Probably not, I’ve been looking on eBay, a few on there ,with one or two 1819’s with  the VI after Joannes . Can’t be any profit for the counterfeiters in such a low value coin surely.

they forged £1 coins . They forge everything that can make them any profit

[zookeeperz]

not the greatest example but only one I could find on the bay but see the difference where the legend sits. There could be other die varieties. Krause will list the most common but sometimes it does leave out some varieties obvious reason page space or the book would be needing a forklift truck to move

There is a remote possibility it could be a mule because your bust type with the gap between G. and PORT with the P at the front of the head is from the KM# 370 bust but that obverse didn't start until 1820. So could it be a Mule  370 bust with km#365 date? I would seriously doubt it though

Edited May 17, 2018 by zookeeperz

[Richard2]

Thanks very much to the both of you for your replies, it will go back in the box for now with a ticket stating probable contemporary forgery 

[davidrj]

50 minutes ago, Richard2 said:

Thanks very much to the both of you for your replies, it will go back in the box for now with a ticket stating probable contemporary forgery 

 

It looks OK to me, just checked my Portuguese catalogue. 1819 has round shield as do all 1820 - 1825, but 1821 and 1823 both exist with oval shield. Wouldn’t worry too much about position of lettering, these are all pretty crude strikes, and footnote to this type states “existe legenda junta e seperada” 

36mm 38.4g bronze

2013 values for 1819 are F €20 VF €100 EF €250

Edited May 17, 2018 by davidrj

[Richard2]

Thanks David, does your catalogue show the 1819 with or without the VI

[davidrj]

4 minutes ago, Richard2 said:

Thanks David, does your catalogue show the 1819 with or without the VI

1811-1815 have no VI in legend and all have oval shield, variations to legend exist - it’s a general rather than a specialised catalogue.

D.Joao Principe Regente 1799-1816 = prince regent

D.Joao VI O Clemente 1816-1826 = king