petitioncrown

YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE When a collection such as Frank Brady British Groats comes to the market we do not always appreciate at the time the devotion, time and effort to create such a collection. Every piece creates a differing level of research, even excitement as the collector for a period in this case of over 30 years has the enjoyment while developing such a collection. I revisited the catalogue this morning and I have done so many times in the last 2 months. It has taken time for me to begin to understand the “love” of the collection before it was sold. It is always with hindsight that we seem always to wish we had just acquired a few more pieces. These groats tell a story of everyday coinage from 1272 Edward I to 1685 Charles II a period of over 20 monarchs of England over 400 years. A collection is never completed; the catalogue will be remembered as a reference work for the British Hammered Groat. The individual pieces will now disappear into our collections but the name of Brady as the years go on will be remembered as being a milestone in British Numismatics. The catalogue will be a reference work. The collection was sold while Frank Brady could see his achievement. Maybe Brady will start a new collection? LOT 305 Henry VIII, second coinage, 1526-44, Groat, 2.57g, York, m.m. voided cross both sides (Thomas Wolsey, 1526-30), crowned bust right, fra, rev. long cross fourchée over shield, t-w at sides, Cardinal's hat below, saltire in forks (N.1799; S.2339; Whitton I; Stewartby p. 473,1 Cardinal Thomas Wolseley, who from 1523, was both Archbishop of York and Palatine Bishop of Durham, issued the only coins of the Groat denomination bearing the symbols of an English cleric.

THAT IS ONE GREAT MM SCEPTER COIN - WAITING FOR IT TO ARRIVE IN THE POST HMMMMMMMM

That is a staggeringly beautiful coin. I can well understand why you were smitten. Its age and historicity is only part of the appeal, it shines also in its own right. Yes, I have migrated from date runs of pennies and halfcrowns (which I loved) and sixpences and farthings (which were affordable) - and became a type collector quite a number of years ago. But even there, I now ask myself, "what constitutes a TYPE"? A few years back I would have said "it means I must have one of each denomination within each obverse issue, per reign". But now I say to myself "Why bother with a very common and persistent reverse type (e.g. silver 3d) when you have larger denominations for those obverses?" The same applies with sixpences, and many other types. Yet now I have moved on even further. I look at the second and third reverse types of George IV halfcrown - unique types - and think "Actually I hate those reverses." And I keep them only for the obverse. So the type collection has become more dictated by what I actually like. And beyond even that - there are the questions of "how far down the varieties line does one go?" and "how far down the rarities path does one go?". So now, if I was putting a collection of George VI pennies together in BU, I'd go with : - one of 1937, 38, or 39 - the 1940 single exergue line - a 1944 or 45 Mint toned - either a 1950 or 51 Similarly with Edward VII halfcrowns in as high a grade as I could afford : - either 1902 or 1910 UNC - either 1904 NVF or 1903 GF - 1905 Fair+ So it's a mix of types and rarities that both appeal to me and which I can afford. The latter being not even on the same planet as you Rob. Though you make a good point about not looking at what other people have in their collections. I have begun to love early milled in the last decade or so, but these are now frighteningly unaffordable in any grade worth having. I console myself with the truth (and it is a truth) that the reverse designs were scarily and unimaginatively repetitive from Charles II all the way through to George II - essentially the same design on all silver coins (though with subtle variations and interesting byways involving harps, crowns, plumes, roses, LIMA, Edinburgh, etc), and largely the same on coppers. THIS CHAT IS GREAT, A PERSONS COLLECTION IS VERY PERSONAL, A GOOD FEELING AND HAPPY FACTOR OF BEING ABLE TO CHAT, POST COMMENTS, EXCHANGE THOUGHTS IS A GREAT PART OF WHAT MAKES US COLLECTORS. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU COLLECT WEL WORN VICTORIAN BUN PENNIES (I ONCE BOUGHT A SMALL BAG OF THEM), WHAT MATTERS IS EACH PERSONS COLLECTION IS IMPORTANT.

Hi Rob, is it the electric is on a low rate at 2 in the morning? or is it you just cannot sleep?

I NEVER SAID I WAS NORMAL NOTHING A WEIRD AS FOLK I DID SAY LET US OPEN AND TELL STORIES -WHO CAN BE NORMAL COLLECTING PIECES OF METAL

BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER

We all collect within a budget(or one assumes no one here goes into debt in doing it). I'm sure we all have coins which we believe are quality...and within individual parameters are. An exclusive coin is great...but imagine if its only 2nd best. Everyone needs a kick up the backside...BUT if we all sought the Holy Grail of coins there would be a lot of disappointed collectors. I look at what I believe other collectors have...and yes I am jealous only to the extent that I will get there at my own speed. History and coins goes without saying...imagination. You wrote “We all collect within a budget (or one assumes no one here goes into debt in doing it)” WRONG I was totally crazy Many coins I acquired have stories, I do not go to the bookies or gamble, drink heavily, smoke but one day I heard about a coin being sold in Sotheby’s. It was a Roman imperial Brass Sestertius. I saw a picture and fell in love with the coin. I did what can only be called a reclus action. The coin was going to fetch +/- £X. I went to the Bank, and tried to borrow the money. The story ended that I took the house we lived in and put this as security. Agrippina the Elder (ca 14 B.C. - 33 A.D.) the mother of emporer Caligula I purchased the coin; the portrait could have been created in the beginning of the 20th Century not the 1st Century. I have loved the coin ever since. The coin in my eyes was beautiful; it was the cover coin ‘WOMEN OF THE CAESARS’ IF A COLLECTION COULD BE ONE COIN, THIS IS ONE

Your Vespasian still shows the powerfull portrait of an Imperial Brass Sestercius - you aquired the coin very well

The luck and the making of luck having our children join our hobby. Although this is not British it is British related as Jonathon remembers all the coins we acquire. This is the first time he enjoys research to learn about currency. How my youngest son 25 who knows we collect British & Roman became more interested in Numismatics recently ? 30 years ago I was paid for work done and with the money I acquired a mixed bag of Ottoman coins which I put away. These were days when a bag of coins would be melted for the silver value. Ottoman coins were not the most beautifully struck coins; in fact many were just awful. Several months ago I started to look at these and Jonathon assisted me to start sorting them. This was at the start of 2011, the other day we looked again and had a new book and Jonathon began to sort out the dates, what they were and were from in the Empire. Learned the Arabic alphabet, how each mint was written on the coin and has begun to understand the different Pasha and there Tugra of the sultan and other markings on the coins. One of the coins was this interesting piece from a mint at Gümüshane TURKEY: Sultan Mahmud I, 1730-1754, AR kurush (26.49g), Gümüshane, AH1143, KM-212. NP-568, initial #10, great strike with virtually no weakness at all. Gümüshane, The name literally means "silver house". It is composed of Turkish gümüş (silver) and the Persian خانه hane=khane (House). A small silver mining town now on the highway between Erzurum and Trabzon. The only coins I found bearing the name was during the Ottoman period during the reign of Mahmud I. There was a time many years ago that the “rag and bone man†or “new for old†would go from village to village collect old brass plates, many silvered and occasionally amongst the plates you would find plates with the ‘Tugra’ of the Sultan or maker embossed. Interested to understand more about such embossing on a plate ?

Great piece of creative Numsmatic history - A late 19th Cent VESTA special created for a mumismitist. Value what any crazy collector will pay. Maybe there is a silver watch fob to go with it?

I agree it looks ODD, has the weight been checked?, always difficult to come to a conclusion from a digital photo.

Elizabeth I, Pattern Penny, 1601,1.96g.,in copper, crowned bust three-quarters left, wearing elaborate dress and ruff, the pledge of, rev. crowned monogram of Elizabeth dividing date, a penny (Brown and Comber P8; BMC 4; N.2051), a gemlike coin, the portrait expressive and delicately engraved, in mint state with a deep chocolate tone, excessively rare in copper provenance: W Brice, collection purchased en bloc by H Montagu, 1887 H Montagu, Sotheby, 7 May 1888, lot 256 J G Murdoch, Sotheby, 31 March 1903, lot 675 J O Manton, Sotheby, 10 February 1947, lot 69 R C Lockett, Glendining, 11 October 1956, lot 2059 Peck recorded six known specimens in copper, including those in the British Museum, the Fitzwilliam Museum, and the Hunterian Museum, Glasgow

Is that yours, and if so is it the one that Roddy had? my pin brain thought it was ExBarr, did not see your prior reply

WoW can we see larger photo? did it come in the last few years from a UK dealer?

SHOW YOUR DREAM COIN/S Exeter Half-crown A magnificent and beautiful specimen of exceptional quality, a full round coin. Deeply toned with underlying lustre. A portrait and fine engraving seldom seen. Our appetite for such quality is never satisfied. Elizabeth I, Pattern Penny, 1.96g., 1601, in copper, crowned bust three-quarters left, wearing elaborate dress and ruff, the pledge of, rev. crowned monogram of Elizabeth dividing date, a penny (Brown and Comber P8; BMC 4; N.2051), a gemlike coin, the portrait expressive and delicately engraved, in mint state with a deep chocolate tone, excessively rare in copper provenance: W Brice, collection purchased en bloc by H Montagu, 1887 H Montagu, Sotheby, 7 May 1888, lot 256 J G Murdoch, Sotheby, 31 March 1903, lot 675 J O Manton, Sotheby, 10 February 1947, lot 69 R C Lockett, Glendining, 11 October 1956, lot 2059 Peck recorded six known specimens in copper, including those in the British Museum, the Fitzwilliam Museum, and the Hunterian Museum, Glasgow

Hi all The creation of a collection of copper, bronze or brass coins in high grade is extremely difficult. Coins from the ancient Greek, Roman to our everyday bonze coins with a natural patina without being tampered with is rare. 1694 Half-Penny Proof COINS ARE HISTORY - Technology today allows us to communicate our research, interesting detail, thoughts, ideas, and digital pictures. is it possible to grade ?

I would like to make clear my statement in the article :- The middle quality [bRITISH COINAGE] VF+ is advancing at a slightly slower pace as there is a lack of higher quality material to meet present demand. THE IMPORTANCE OF THE VF+ COLLECTOR IS PARAMOUNT TO OUR HOBBY, AS IS THE ACADEMIC COLLECTOR WHO BRINGS NEW VARIETIES FORWARD IRESESPECTIVE OF GRADE.[/b] I DID WRITE JUST ‘SLIGHTLY SLOWER RATE’ ONLY Geoffrey Cope www.petitioncrown.com

Thanks very important contribution, I have very little knowledge on this area. Regards Jeff

British Coin forecast 2012 www.petitioncrown.com The main auctions for 2011 have just been completed and record prices have been achieved. To laugh or to cry at the market, neither will help to change the present continuing demand. Today we should consider what if there is more financial volatility? What will be the level of interest from the US and other markets? At present it is not easy to evaluate future interest based on the present market. A major question is, in which areas of our series are there coins available for new and existing collectors? We hear what seems to be “much ado about nothing” with reference to investors, these individuals which I hear but fail to encounter. I did hear that the majority of those that start out investing turn into collectors – well, it is new members we welcome to our fraternity. Large gold coins remain much sought after. For example the ‘Triple Unite’, 4 quality specimens of which were sold off for an average of £150,000 each during Coinex. These are a favourite of the wealthy although most Triple Unites are not so rare; strong prices highlight the presence of new collectors and investors, with an eye for quality taking an interest in our hobby. Quality Silver pieces in comparison seem inexpensive. Base metals still quietly demand higher and higher prices. Many times we forget the extreme rarity of Scottish and Irish hammered coins. The prices today being far lower than comparative English coins. Bring rarity into the equation and Scottish & Irish prices need to rise. The forecast for 2012 is clear, subject to the world monetary system continuing as is: • High grade material which accounts in general for less than 10% of coins appearing on the market is moving ahead by 10%-20%. There are coins of high grade and rarity that are now bringing double, triple the estimates at auction. The fact is that quality with or without rarity is sought after as ‘objects d’art’. • The middle quality VF+ is advancing at a slightly slower pace as there is a lack of higher quality material to meet present demand. • The lower quality is attracting very little attention at present and there is no reason to see change in 2012 except if the specimen is an extreme rarity. The Brady Collection of groats sold at Spinks in London on October 6th. showed the strength of the market. 400 lots of one denomination were all sold. High grade and rarity was 300% + over estimate. The auction forecast £200’000 and sold for £342’000 with new world record prices: Henry IV Groat £23’500, a Tournai Gros/Groat just under £30’000. A sale with wonderful rarities. It makes us remember what wonderful general collections were Slaney, Marshall, Van Roekel + Lot 290 Brady Collection Tournai Gros/Groat dated 1513 The auction was well covered by CNG & Allan Davisson and others from the US and many UK dealers and collectors. CNG are getting the Seaby spirit and bidding strongly for quality material in the UK market. The English coin market is attracting overseas attention again from the US and the world market, prices for quality and rarity being just a fraction of prices for US coins. English Tournai Groat/Gros, Lot 290, The Brady Collection, London, Spinks, 6th Oct 2011 - A SILVER GROAT/GROS (4p piece) of King Henry VIII dated 1513 when Tournai in France was under English rule, these coins are detailed in Spinks Standard Catalogue reference 2317*. Hammer Price with commission for under £ 30’000. This rarity slipped through and was underr ated by most collectors or dealers, demonstrating there are always opportunities.Coins had been struck in Tournai over a long period and there were skilled craftsman available to undertake the minting of Henry VIII 1513 coinage. The coin was replaced in 1514 by an English portrait Groat, Standard Catalogue reference 2317. This coin dated 1513 in Latin Numerals is an Extreme Rarity being the earliest English dated coin it is the only one available to collectors of three specimens known, two being in museums. The world has changed; the internet has created a transfer of information quite instantaneously. What was a quiet hobby dominated by dealers’ lists and fairs, now, ever increasing numbers of collectors and investors can scour the world for coins, information prices and ‘alternative investment opportunities. This is only the start for the ‘Art Market of British coins’. A consideration is that individuals will take control of their future investment plans. The lack of confidence in ‘paper money’, and inability of governments to keep fiscal controls will emphasize this trend. Pension funds, insurance, financial institutions struggle to deliver results due to the market volatility. A new driver of the hobby can be the preparation for retirement, today we get 80% of our final salary, and the future will give our children maybe 40% A question I am continually asked is how should the portfolio be split, bullion, rare coins, cash, property, stocks and all the financial tools available – if only I knew the answer! You can go back to farming, we will always need food. Elizabeth I, Pattern Groat, 3.89g, struck in silver, 1601, crowned facing bust of Queen. Lot 360 The Brady Collection A wonderful piece of portraiture It is still as important as always is that the adviser, agent or dealer who looks after your needs should have a good reputation and be knowledgeable. As all hobbies it is good to focus on what you understand, diversification in numismatics can bring dangers through lack of knowledge. Buy the book first. What is driving the market as we enter 2012? • Demand for quality material outstripping supply • Provenances • The internet • Continual volatility & risk in the investment, pension, banking market creating a heightened level of fear and instability The ultimate question is what the state of the market will be 2013/14; this requires the wisdom of age and the enthusiasm of the young. Collecting is a passion, a love of the beauty of these pieces of art and the insights to our history they give. – This gives you no answer but is one of the driving forces of a collector. Geoffrey Cope www.petitioncrown.com

good humour

In the last days after Oct 6th I have heard and listened that I am an idiot, you paid crazy prices, silly money, burning money, +++++. Prices are fuelled at auction with under-bidders. A true price of a coin is quite simple the price that one is pre-pared to pay at a specific time. What creates demand? how many under-bidders are their? There is nothing as strong as passion I have for our hobby and I make NO apologies. Please consider a few facts about Brady a dedicated person who created a collection over 30 years, he brought to the hobby a new reference work on Groats. An amazing focussed collection a catalogue which will be sought as a reference work. I propose another way of looking at the prices, how about saying thank you Mr. Brady for bringing together in one sale such a remarkable collection. We are delighted and hope the prices achieved at auction were some small way an appreciation for your dedication to the hobby. There is no value that can be placed on the time and effort for your soul you devoted to amass such a collection. We wish you every success and hope you find the opportunity to create another collection. j www.petitioncrown.com

SOLD AT BRADY AUCTION SPINKS 6 OCT 2011 posted on www.petitioncrown.com The earliest dated British coin, Henry VIII, Tournai 1513 in the obverse legend Henry VIII, Tournai Groat 1513 (under English rule, 1513-18), a coin described by H.Montagu at Sotheby, 1895, lot 749, 3.38g. Obv. HENRIC. 8. DI. GRA. FRANCIE. ET. ANGLIE. REX.., Shield crowned between lis and lion passant ; Rev. CIVITAS TORNACENSIS .1.5.1.3 , Cross voided, fourchee, with three bars across each limb, in centre h within quatrefoil ; lis and lion alternately in angles (Rud. Suppl. 2, pl XII), of extreme rarity and the finest of only three specimen known. From the Shepherd collection (lot 219) (Hoc, Histoire Monétaire de Tournai, 204-6; Vanhoudt Atlas der Munten van België, G.418; de Mey Les Monnaies du Tournaisis, 167) Edward John Shepherd, M.A.Sotheby 23 July 1885 lot 219 sold to Rollin (a dealer) for £20-1-0 'of extreme rarity, and the finest of three specimens known' no pedigree. the text just describes the coin.Rev. PROVENANCE Frank Brady 2011 lot 290 SNC May 1990, item 2521 Philippi, Glendining, 8 July 1970, lot 59 H.W. Morrieson, Sotheby, 20 November 1933, lot 225 H.Montagu, Sotheby, 18-22 November 1895, lot 749 £25.00 Shepherd lot 1885, lot 219 www.petitioncrown.com

Hi Members I am interested to understand your opinions on a number if topics concerning the future of our hobby What effect the internet is having on our coin collecting habits? Are prices moving due to supply and demand or dealers understand that the market has a number of new collectors that do not understand our grading which opens a new window of opportunity? What is really driving prices the lack of material or dealers? Regards www.petitioncrown.com

I enjoy the three dinension coin- which program r u using petitioncrown Having just recently read a very good book about the Brinks Mat gold bullion robbery. It got me thinking as to were the Royal Mint, gets their gold from, and is it possbile that some of this gold, might well have made its way into the Royal Mint? Has anyone got any thoughts or opinions? Look forward to hearing them.....

Hi Welcome back to coin collecting, The method u r using in the oak storage cabinets is great. The wood over the years creates a wonderful natural toning. Usually the coins lay on a small piece of felt which minimizes the cabinet friction. Now if u have a security problem with the size of the cabinet and have to use a safe then the regular cardboard box and paper envelopes are the best. The NO NO is the plastic envelopes and plastic binders with plastic wallets in them. From plastic envelopes u get condensation. J www.petitioncrown.com