1889 Small Jubilee Head Shilling query

[Rob 3,002]

Could anyone who has an example please check the date for a 9 over a 7 or 8 and if possible post an image of the date. Thanks.

As an afterthought, I suppose that any 1889 shilling could be over a 7 or 8, so please check any you might have.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Rob

[Nick 325]

Could anyone who has an example please check the date for a 9 over a 7 or 8 and if possible post an image of the date. Thanks.

As an afterthought, I suppose that any 1889 shilling could be over a 7 or 8, so please check any you might have.

I have one each of Davies 984 (small head) and 986 (large head). Neither show any signs of the 9 being over another digit.

[Rob 3,002]

Thanks. It's just that mine has a larger 9 in the date when compared with the 1 & 8 and traces of a horizonal and angled line superimposed on the 9 together with a small trace of a protrusion on the left side of the top of the 9 suggesting 9/7

[Nick 325]

Thanks. It's just that mine has a larger 9 in the date when compared with the 1 & 8 and traces of a horizonal and angled line superimposed on the 9 together with a small trace of a protrusion on the left side of the top of the 9 suggesting 9/7

Given the large number of 8/7 in existence, a 9/7 has to be a distinct possibility.

[Rob 3,002]

Here we go. The outside angle of the 7 is clear in the hand as are 2 blobs at the right hand side limit of the upright, a raised portion just to the right of the ball on the narrow section of the tail and a small protrusion at the left hand limit of the top bar. For those collectors of all possible die varieties, the potential cost of completion just went up a bit.

[Colin G. 147]

Here we go. The outside angle of the 7 is clear in the hand as are 2 blobs at the right hand side limit of the upright, a raised portion just to the right of the ball on the narrow section of the tail and a small protrusion at the left hand limit of the top bar. For those collectors of all possible die varieties, the potential cost of completion just went up a bit.

I think I can see the angle of the 7 top right, but everything else is just not visible to me, but that may just be the image

[Nick 325]

I think I can see the angle of the 7 top right, but everything else is just not visible to me, but that may just be the image

I don't really see it either, but mine does have similar marks - despite me not seeing anything when I looked yesterday.

If it were a 9/7, would you not expect to see some remnant of the lower edge of the horizontal bar of the 7 within the loop of the 9?

Here's a picture of mine.

[Rob 3,002]

First of all a scan isn't the best, but the detail as described does show in the hand.

As to how much of the old character remains after modification depends entirely on how well the old figure has been filled and the new one cut. I don't know how they filled the original hole. It may have been by pouring a miniscule amount of liquid metal into the hole or alternatively it was done by packing the character with a solid piece of metal and hammering it into the die until compacted. Thinking out loud, I would have expected them to heat the die to such a temperature as to soften the metal and fill it with liquid at this temperature - maybe hammering it home with a small flat tool, but I've no idea whether this is what was done. Alternatively they could pack it and melt the metal locally on the die if the technology existed for such fine welding.

When the original character is filled, it frequently leaves a thin line or the remnants of a thin line at the junction between original and new metal. This can show up as a slight depression or a raised line or anything in between depending on the quantity of filler used. This is seen on my 1675/3/2 halfpenny in the confirmed unlisted section where the base of the filled 2 is a slightly raised line. When the new character is punched in, the depth of the hole and the quality of the fill will have a bearing. If the new character is deeper than the original, then you will obliterate any trace of the original. If the new character is shallower than the original, you can get an impression of the original superimposed on top of the new character detail. For an example look at the 1807/6 proof halfpenny thread. In that instance, the outline of the 6 is seen above the new 7 as a result of the filled die not having been smoothed out properly. The 7 is also seen with 6 detail on the top of the 7 relief (i.e. the 6 wasn't filled to sufficient depth or completion to eradicate the old character and so you see the traces of the original design as well as the new digit.

It's quite obvious on many overstrikes if you take the time to look carefully and relate the position of the various marks. 1889/8 halfpennies spring to mind where there are 4 dies I think with the overstruck digit. My 1862/26 1/2d is another example. In the hand it's bl*****g obvious even if scans don't show a feature up well.

[Nick 325]

When the original character is filled, it frequently leaves a thin line or the remnants of a thin line at the junction between original and new metal. This can show up as a slight depression or a raised line or anything in between depending on the quantity of filler used. This is seen on my 1675/3/2 halfpenny in the confirmed unlisted section where the base of the filled 2 is a slightly raised line. When the new character is punched in, the depth of the hole and the quality of the fill will have a bearing. If the new character is deeper than the original, then you will obliterate any trace of the original. If the new character is shallower than the original, you can get an impression of the original superimposed on top of the new character detail. For an example look at the 1807/6 proof halfpenny thread. In that instance, the outline of the 6 is seen above the new 7 as a result of the filled die not having been smoothed out properly. The 7 is also seen with 6 detail on the top of the 7 relief (i.e. the 6 wasn't filled to sufficient depth or completion to eradicate the old character and so you see the traces of the original design as well as the new digit.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't really thought about the process involved in sufficient detail, especially the fact that the previous character would have been filled before the new one was punched in.

I guess that there must be many overdates that are almost undetectable due to the skill of the die worker.