Martinminerva

Yes, Mike, totally see where you are coming from! Any other members have ideas and theories to add to Mike's selective removal idea and my pseudo-pattern conjecture? Also, I wonder if Freeman's rarity of R15 is accurate - seems rarer than that? Wonder if Richard has records of numbers known as part of his rare pennies website? Perhaps there should be a forum competition for who can post a picture of the WORST but still positively identifiable F.14 😋😋

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research. I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Even fair would do me! But, yes, think I have only ever seen one in Fine or thereabouts, but double figures at the top end of the grade spectrum. Anyone fancy speculating a reason why - or have I just been looking in the wrong places?! Anyone care to post a picture of their lower grade one?

Can someone post a picture of it, please? I fancy a laugh!

Absolutely agree! Very few narrow date 79s in truly high grade, and likewise for open 3 1863s. I'd go further and even add 1864... All over the place in lower grade, but how many unc with lustre? In the old Cope and Rayner English Milled Coins, they had rarity estimates for different grades; maybe that should be the case amongst us penny-ists? But then of course we're talking about whether rarity is total extant or just nice ones! And that's always likely to be a moot point. I just try to get the best I can at the time and slowly improve grade if and when the chance comes along.

Absolutely, Mike, in the case of my 4 plus 3. In fact, in lower grade they are easy to spot as the sea wears flatter and obviously crosses the linear circle. Also, the date spacing is intermediate between the narrow and wide date versions of the common, later reverses for 1875.

Agreed - especially in lower grade. I have 4 ranging from good fine down to fair. And I have sold 3 other worse ones on eBay over the years... But I do agree that they are rare in high grade. Maybe that's more realistic for the 25 ish number if you only count EF and above! Don't really think they merit a page, Richard, or else you'd be listing loads of other varieties like open 3 1863s, narrow date 1879s etc which I suspect are a similar number both in lower and then higher grade...

Even back in 1927 in the auction?? Or indeed even when it was done (presumably) in Victorian times? Not a lot of money has been made with it if Seaby sold it for £20 back in 1992 and I paid £25 in 2021 !! Must have taken many hours to produce, so a good deal below the minimum wage! Anyway, a nice curio...

Close up of date... A real bit of craftsmanship, but why?!

Hi, all. I bought it, indeed as a curiosity. The seller had a "best offer" button on the listing, so I put in an offer and he accepted! I can confirm it has indeed been modified from an 1859 specimen. There is no w.w. and under extreme magnification one can see where material has been moved from the centre of the 9 to plug the "gap" at about 8 o'clock in the original digit so it looks like a continuous curve. But, my word, it has been done skilfully! I bought it as I remembered seeing one before (presumably Gary's above) and wondered how many others might be out there. I will try to take close-ups of the date later and post. The seller also told me that he bought it from Seaby's when they closed down and said it had been in old man Seaby's (would that be Peter Seaby??) personal collection as a curio. Wonder if he bought it from the auction Bramah mentioned? No way of knowing that, I guess... So, not a unique rarity - never thought it was - but a brilliantly executed alteration. Wonder why anyone would take the time and effort to do it, though?

And I think this would perhaps qualify as an alternative ONF penny - nearly even PFNNY too!! Certainly many letters are weak or deficient. A good diagnostic I suspect of this fourth die. Any other specimens out there?

You pipped me to that one, Jerry! I was just "buying it now" when it closed! Also, did anyone on here get this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Penny-1861-/393052202355?hash=item5b83bca573%3Ag%3A0uYAAOSwzEpf03PO&nma=true&si=HsvO6lNGBPRb%2BAmvjfay%2BxU5S9A%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 It is an 1861 6+F, detector find but nice. It actually sold for a best offer of £100. I also put an offer in, but less and was beaten, but that's how I know what it actually went for. If you did get it, can you post better pics, perhaps?

Actually all these widest date 1889s I've seen (half a dozen or so) are obverse R (when the leaf area is clear, that is) with the extra leaf and NOT obverse S. I think it's an error in Michael Gouby's book, and they all should be BP 1889Ad. I have never seen a positively identifiable 1889Cd. Not a huge worry as they are properly rare anyway, but for the sake of total precision, I believe they are all this die pair in actual fact.

Nice one! These wide 1889s are rare in any condition, and this one is ace! Can you post a pic of the obverse too? Was it on eBay, or a dealer, or just a chance find? Happy Christmas to you all!

Do it!! It'll be hilarious if you win it for less than you bid originally! Mind you, then he might not fulfil the transaction and lead to even more fun and games!😏

Also very fishy is this eBay store address above. Typing that into the browser, all you get is this:

Yup, all from Lockdales.......  No reply yet. Jerry Lockdales have an eBay presence... Their user name is rothesay21 and it might be worth contacting them through eBay to alert them to these fishy goings on. Easiest way to do that is via one of their current listings, such as this... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GB-Queen-Victoria-Bronze-Bun-Head-Farthing-1863/233799046307?hash=item366f8254a3:g:qGIAAOSwBj9fwOUI Definitely something odd going on to judge by his unpleasant replies. Good luck!

He has got a few negatives from people who say his items never arrived. I see also he is listing a few other coins at the moment, including a couple of 1856 pennies. Have these pictures been culled from Lockdales too, I wonder... ?

Perhaps, Richard, you should report him/the item to eBay using the report this item link on the listing page? Taking pictures from another source is against eBay rules, not to mention false advertising!

And the winner is... Blakeyboy. People have seen sense after all!!

He has...  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1863-Nice-Grade/333797053007?hash=item4db7dad24f:g:JucAAOSwT~lftTJx  Now at £30, with 18 bids, and just under three days to go... Who fancies a sweepstake on its final silly sale price? I will say £250. Anyone else fancy playing?!😜

I just compared it to my example, and I agree, it is a F192A. 100% agree too. As I've said before, they're still out there if one keeps eyes peeled!  What's she going to do with it? Put it in a main auction house sale?  What sort of money do they make nowadays? 

Whoops! Deleted, but see next post...

Good shout, Paddy - I bet that's exactly it! Wonder if the original high bidder got cold feet as a result of the forum or Richard's website? I see the new listing has now got a bid... which removes the offer option, but I will keep watching to see what it finally makes. I still wouldn't be surprised if it goes for silly money "just in case", in the mind of an ignorant punter!

He has... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1863-Nice-Grade/333797053007?hash=item4db7dad24f:g:JucAAOSwT~lftTJx No mention of the "die number" now! But, interesting to see he now has a best offer option available for it - Lukasz doesn't usually do that, so maybe he has listed it for the idiot to put an idiotic offer in! Watch closely over the next few hours to see if it does sell!!