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1887jubilee

Unidentified Variety
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Everything posted by 1887jubilee

  1. I have to agree with Peckris the only way to get the feel of the auction is to have a telephone bid or better still the live internet links provided by Sixbid and the saleroom.com Both these services are invaluable as they are as good as being in the saleroom without having to do the journey. Nobody likes being squeezed but it is always that last bid you feel slightly uncomfortable with that wins the day. Another way to play it if you know who is buying is to let the dealer buy the coin, without pushing him up, then contact him afterwards. Risky but it occasionally works.
  2. I don't wish to seem sanctimonious but this problem has cropped up 2000 years ago over a Roman tax. Jesus' answer was sinple "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Why should we want to cheat either the tax man or a forum god? I have been taxed at UK customs but on the occasions that I pointed out The coin was for my own collection and research purposes the tax was refunded.
  3. The leading authority on this subject is, as indicated by other members, David J de Sola Rogers. His facinating book "Toy Coins" 1990 was available from Galata Print and is still available from your local library. I have recently borrowed it from the inter library lending service. Ask for it using the details above and ISBN number 0951667106. If you want details of any of the 1887 toy money please ask and I will try to help as I have my own copy of that part of the book. Most pieces are easily obtained for a few pounds but, as with most collections, the specialist pieces command much more. However de Sola Rogers is not infallible and some of the pieces he gives as RRR are still easy to come by. Note he uses a different rarity scale from the norm. The Fitzwilliam Museum has a good selection and this is able to be viewed online but this is only because de Sola's collection is now in the Fitzwilliam. Another helpful site is found by googling "half farthing". While not complete the collections available will give you lots to get a good insight into the vast field of Toy Coins. I hope this is a help in getting you started.
  4. yup youre right .....ive seen some of those £2 polo mint coins on ebay, you take the middle out and claim its rare I shot the centre clean out of a £2 at 25yds. once so I guess they do exist. Will I get done for defacing a coin of the realm or for only defacing half a coin of the realm. The home secretary might give me only half the sentence.
  5. I reckon the 2nd is 10c-f based on the legend EDWAR R ANGL DNS HYB I FIND THE BEST GUIDE FOR THESE IS THE GALATA GUIDE TO THE PENNIES OF EDWARD I & II £20 AND A LOT MORE READABLE THAN SPINK, NORTH, OR WREN. EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE READ THEM ALL IT IS NOT EASY. I would add the reverse has straight sided Ns unbarred and closed C with a straight bar. this isn't listed after class 9
  6. The more I look at this one the more it looks like 10c-f crown 2 The drapery is particularly noticable, closed e late s bifoliate crown with very small spears,no punctuation in or after the legend, see Galata guide.
  7. I reckon the 2nd is 10c-f based on the legend EDWAR R ANGL DNS HYB I FIND THE BEST GUIDE FOR THESE IS THE GALATA GUIDE TO THE PENNIES OF EDWARD I & II £20 AND A LOT MORE READABLE THAN SPINK, NORTH, OR WREN. EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE READ THEM ALL IT IS NOT EASY.
  8. Our friend 1887 will know the answer if anyone does He opened my eyes to the sheer number of minor varieties that exist. Thank you for your vote of confidence. All you say is perfectly correct the Arabic 1 was used in the sets which would indicate that 797 were Arabic 1 but I have read that mintage of the proof double florin was, as with the other silver coins, 1084. This allows for up to 287 others. Recent work shows the proportion of Roman to Arabic double florins in a sample of 591 to be 200 Roman to 391 Arabic. This is using the reverse A and B as given in Davies. I have no way of knowing whether this proportion holds for the remaining 287 or if it applies at all, all I can say is, yes there are proof Roman I coins. You should also remember the specimen sets have a proportion of Roman I coins and people often mistake the high quality coins for proofs. Again the currency coins, that is those using the currency dies also have occasional proof or proof like strikings. As the years go by the best uncirculated coins, especially early strikings, take on an appearence of being proof but held up against the real thing it is easy to tell the difference. I would be happy to examine anything you think might be a Roman proof and send you photos of mine if you provide email. Obverse and reverse needed. As to value the last one I picked up for £140 not long ago. If I were pushed for a mintage number it would have to be less than 150 unless of course all the 287 are Roman.
  9. Only needs a relative variety scarcity/rarity rating to be perfectamundo I must be in a minority then. I want to find other collectors with the same variety, though not too many! In my mind, 'unique' is useless for an undiscovered variety - no-one is interested - but a handful (or more), that's a different story. That would make my 1887 wreath reverse sixpence variety and my 1964 DEI GRAT A sixpence much more valuable. On the subject of this meisterwork don't forget ESC who have been there already and done a superb job. No point in re-inventing the wheel, but it would be useful to straighten a few spokes and put a few new ones in. But how to get all that (presumably copyrighted) stuff into a Wiki? Don't worry, I am still looking for another 1887 sixpence with a seven as wide as yours. I have managed to find about three different positions the closest also having overstruck 2nd. 8. (3 known). I agree a Wiki would be wonderful but human nature is against us. We all need to more generous with our knowledge and less concerned about what it might cost us. If we could all publish our work easily at least the numismatic world could acknowledge the discoverer in the same way a new species is named after the person that discovered it. (Peckris septem effusus)
  10. 1887jubilee

    1887 Shillings

    Yes I concur with Badger. I have just had a quick look at 17 in my collection and 3 rev A have a large miss formed pellet slightly left of the bead. Similarly 5 rev B have the large miss formed pellet slightly left of the bead but the rim beads are wider. The 10 rev C all have the small pellet between beads. The sample includes a proof rev. C and Proof rev A. ( yes I know it isn't in the book and may just be a specimen). I look forward to hearing if there are any other variations.
  11. Now now boys, let's not get too disparaging, the copper alone is shooting up in value. I do agree though the postage would be serious. However I did buy a bag in 1967 and still have it with it's lead Royal Mint seal if you would like to make an offer; bearing in mind it is in Plymouth. Perhaps you are due for a West country holiday.
  12. 1887jubilee

    Gold British coins.

    Is "coin" a euphemism for "sister"? Is "gold" a euphemism for "hot"? Is "rare" a euphemism for "sh*gs like a barn door"? No "Rare" means he only has 5-20 known sisters.
  13. 1887jubilee

    1887 wreath reverse 6d variety

    Hello, I can confirm that from the information available to date I consider this coin to be a variation of the wreath type S3929. So far I have identified 20 1887 sixpences excluding the 12 additional patterns by Spink & Son ESC 1778-1784A. I should add that the 20 includes only one for the R/I variety BSC 1152. This is a difficult area and only the crispest uncirculated specimins are clear enough to differentiate under a microscope. Suffice it to say there are more than 3 and possibly up to 8 or 10 different R/I types. If you are a sixpence specialist you will probably have come across the recent sale of the Alfred Bole collection which is as fine as any I have seen but when it comes to the nit picking anorak like me there will always be a dot missing or a slightly different overstrike to keep my wife board to tears for hours on end. Previous commentators are right, most are worth little more than the usual coins. The exception is with pennies which, because there are so many collectors, fetch daft prices. Writing a paper about the 1887 series may help but the same could be said of any date. If you have anything of interest in the 1887 sixpences or would like to discus further please reply here in the first instance with contact details and I will respond as soon as I see it.
  14. 1887jubilee

    1887 wreath reverse 6d variety

    Hello, I can confirm that from the information available to date I consider this coin to be a variation of the wreath type S3929. So far I have identified 20 1887 sixpences excluding the 12 additional patterns by Spink & Son ESC 1778-1784A. I should add that the 20 includes only one for the R/I variety BSC 1152. This is a difficult area and only the crispest uncirculated specimins are clear enough to differentiate under a microscope. Suffice it to say there are more than 3 and possibly up to 8 or 10 different R/I types. If you are a sixpence specialist you will probably have come across the recent sale of the Alfred Bole collection which is as fine as any I have seen but when it comes to the nit picking anorak like me there will always be a dot missing or a slightly different overstrike to keep my wife board to tears for hours on end. Previous commentators are right, most are worth little more than the usual coins. The exception is with pennys which because there are so many collectors fetch daft prices. Writing a paper about the 1887 series may help but the same could be said of any date. If you have anything of interest in the 1887 sixpences or would like to discus further please reply here in the first instance with contact details and I will respond as soon as I see it.
  15. 1887jubilee

    Miniature Victorian Toy Money?

    The best book on this type of toy money is by a fellow called de Solo Rogers. There is also a good selection in the Fitzwilliam Museum and you can see them all on line. The book is seriously expensive but can be ordered to view from your library for £1.5. If the coins you are looking at are dated 1887 I have all the images and book details. Pay no attention to the rarity ratings as I have found them unreliable.
  16. 1887jubilee

    Comparative rarity scales

    I think you will find there are insufficient people with the necessary resources to do such a study. We all have gut feelings for relative rarity, but very little concrete evidence resulting from systematic study. Most of us will do some sort of number crunching in our respective field of interest, but unless the statistics are collected under standardised procedures it will be comparing chalk & cheese. You shouldn't underestimate the amount of work required to do such a study. I've just completed a study of the Weyl patterns for publication in the BNJ which has taken me about 2 years off and on. Looking through about 4000 catalogues and lists I've located somewhere in excess of 420 records for the approximately 100 varieties. Tedious - yes, and that is for a series of unique or nearly so coins. If you do a survey of the coins listed above you will have many, many more data points to consider. If you don't get an adequate number the statistics will be meaningless. It isn't just a question of recording the number of times examples of a particular coin come to market, you also have to establish which coin is which to avoid double counting. This is easier with hammered because of the variation in shape and strike, but milled is a nightmare as you only have toning, spots, flaws and other imperfections to rely on when identifying specific coins prior to the introduction of colour catalogues. 50 years or more ago the illustrations were taken from wax impressions, so the first two items above don't apply from before say WW2. You also have to contend with those coins that have been dipped. Welcome to the world of provenances. Who has access to sufficient reference material other than myself and who is going to do the donkey work? I could do some given the time but it would take an eternity and in any case my library is nowhere near complete. I'm not aware of anyone else on this forum with a large enough library and if there is an individual out there, they are keeping very quiet. Very glad to hear you have finished the weyl paper Rob. Are my pieces R5 R6 or R7?
  17. 1887jubilee

    1887 wreath reverse 6d variety

    Dear Peckris I was hoping you might email a phone number so that we might discus your thoughts on the variety. I have had a couple of days to work on your coin and the pictures provided. The reverse pictures nos.1-8 fall into the two groups you describe and are attributable to the YH and JH sixpences. The first 8 aligns with a bead on the JH and slightly between for the YH similarly the beads are longer for the YH and rounder for the JH. You say the reverse die was already available from the YH coinage to use for the 2nd. jubilee issue. This is not strictly true as the two crowns are totally different. Now to your variety. I have traced and overlaid the images you helpfully provided and compared with my collection. The images are not quite the same size but even so there is the positioning of the 7 which is almost 1/3 of a bead further over this together with the strong ribbon towards the knot (centre) seems to add weight to your case. I have examined 27 sixpences in my own collection both YH & JH including proofs and all the listed varieties of obverse and reverse. The one thing to note is that there is a progressive deterioration in the right hand ribbon which on the early strikes is well defined but as, presumably wear and tear, takes its toll, the ribbon breaks up from the knot outward. This is clear on your pictures 8 & 7 in that order. You did of course notice that picture 1 is of an 1837 sixpence not 1887. It would be helpful to see full pictures of your variation and I would like to, with your approval, include a mention in the book I am compiling on the 1887 coinage. You will not be surprised to know there are upwards of 28 different 6d and all the small differences do not make a lot of difference except to those that are sufficiently interested. I should be pleased to talk to you about it. 07967505509
  18. 1887jubilee

    1887 wreath reverse 6d variety

    could you give me phone number and I will give you a ring please. Quite a lot to discus athorburn@hotmail.co.uk
  19. I picked up on this thread because of my 1887 interest. The coin could be from one of the specimen sets that are curency issue in presentation cases. Always of very high quality and early strikes but from the currency issue dies. so far as the photography goes I am getting exceptional quality by just using a rubber band to hold a £2.50 jeweller's eyeglass on the front of my digital camera!
  20. 1887jubilee

    London Coin Auction

    No but I bought a couple of coins over the phone. Next question.
  21. First class responses from Chingford and Colin G at http://www.aboutfarthings.co.uk/Lauer%20Model%20Farthings.html . I look forward to him getting the other images to finish the web page. There is also good information on the Fitzwilliam Museum web site.
  22. I can only agree with comments posted so far. The striking, if it is not cast, is weak, the lettering BP just looks wrong, the lettering is a slightly different font as the uprights are thinner than I would expect and the M is not at all like any of the other Ms on the sovereign or like the font for the S on the Sydney £2 ( 8 known). That said the size and weight are correct but how did you have the gold content assayed at 22ct. ? I would be interested in such a piece as a forgery but without provenance this must be recognised for what it is.
  23. Dear Mike There is nothing more exciting than a collection to examine. If you are a total novice there are any number of people who will offer to have a look at it for you the problem is knowing the ones who may have a vested interest and knowing the ones who will give you an honest and fair appraisal. In the first instance I would get hold of the Chairman of your local Numismatic Society and ask them to come and have a look. He or she will be able to tell you what kind of "collector" , "Numismatist" or plain horder your relative was. They will also be able to pull in experts from their society or specialists from museums or auction houses to help with pieces that are unfamiliar. They should also be able to give some recommendation as to disposal. Most local societies like my own in Plymouth do this free. Alternatively you could ask a local auctioneer to have a look at least his interest is in making the most of the collection though he will inevitably not be an expert in all areas. I hope this helps. Happy new Year. Andrew
  24. 1887jubilee

    Lauer History

    I have one or two Adolph Weyl patterns and several Lauer play coins all 1887. Weyl is not so hard to get a brief history for try http://www.rpcoins.co.uk/c14.html and if you can talk with Rob Pearce, I hope you are not the same Rob, he is also working on an article concerning the provenances of all Weyl coin patterns. What Weyl patterns do you have please? Anything of 1887 would be of particular interest. Andrew
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