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Posts posted by Peckris

  1. 1 hour ago, Sword said:

    The issue price of the 1927 proof set in cardboard box was 15 shillings. Face value of the coins is 11 shillings 3d. (Information from a document posted by Gary D several years ago.) 

    Hence, it would not have been a big loss for spending them if you were hard up.

    I'm more drawn to the sticky-fingered child theory. I find it harder to envisage a collector buying a proof set (which had to be applied for, by the way) then spending it especially when you consider that coin collecting was not an arena for the working classes of that time.

  2. 8 hours ago, Peter said:

    1942-44 silver 3ds were colonial as well.I'm sure enterprising dealers filled their socks post WW 11.

    Not nearly as rare as they were considered to be in the 60s. And they probably all got saved and escaped the Great Silver 3d Meltdown.

  3. I'm not sure how the values of precious metals were established, but I would guess by market forces. Certain Roman emperors and Tudor monarchs - with varying degrees of slyness - reduced the silver content of coins, to reduce mintage costs or clear debts. If they had simply been able to declare that silver was worth more than it had been, and reduce the content in the coinage openly, I'm sure they would have done so.

  4. 21 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

    Jerry could you explain for me the process of "filling the die locally" do you mean physically insert a piece of metal the hope it stays in place?   This little journey with this E over B? in the 61 LCW reverse is proving to be quite interesting.  I will prepare the pictures and let you take a look I have gone through about 20 and there are indicators and I would value your or anyone else's input who may have some 61's 


    That would be impossible considering the enormous force with which the die hits the blank. The only way IMO is to repunch the erroneous letter, which would certainly leave some trace of the underlying letter. That is obviously not the case with the ONF penny for example, where it's a case of die fill through gradual process, not a stray piece of metal. Where a piece of metal does stick to the die - a brockage for example - it survives only for a single subsequent strike, which is why brockages are unique.

  5. I think perhaps we should leave Larry alone. He didn't start the offending topic about Water Aid, and the person who did has now apologised for certain statements made attacking other members. To that extent we should draw a line under all this, as it's not serving any purpose.

    I doubt that the politics of the majority of members here strike much if any sympathy with me, but this is a coins forum, and we'd be better off banning politics and religion outright. Even in the 'Nothing whatever to do with coins' forum. Here we can meet on a numismatic footing and let's keep it that way. 

    • Like 7

  6. 43 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

    The extreme left means the followers of principles of Marxist philosophy. The extreme right is a government which believes in capitalism. The median between the two is Socialism.

    I'd have to disagree there Larry.

    I'd say the far right is fascism, i.e. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, et al. Capitalism is the underlying economic model of the West, and we all - for good or ill - subscribe to it to some extent or another.

    Socialism is GENERALLY thought of as left wing, though not as far left as Marxist. However the waters are muddied by the kind of 'National Socialism' employed by Hitler, which was socialist in that full employment was achieved, autobahns were built, and there was a strange kind of touted equality. It was extreme right though, in that it used thought control with propaganda and mass rallies, not to forget the awful genocide.

    Social liberalism is often regarded as centrist, though economic liberalism - espoused by Thatcher and Reagan - is a mark of the right.

  7. To all those who decry the value and effectiveness of charities - another example I could quote is 'micro-economics'. This is where absurdly small - by our Western standards - loans are made to people in Third World economies to start up a very small business, often something like selling street food. The transformative effect of this not only on the people directly involved, but also the wider community, cannot be overestimated.

    • Like 1

  8. 1 hour ago, alfnail said:

    An explanation of it being a 9 was given on this forum link by Michael Gouby back in 2009. Scroll down to last text:-



    Whilst I don't have an electron microscope (did actually use one on Apollo moon samples) this is the best picture I have of this overdate using my digital 140x 



    1858 Best 8 Close Up.jpg

    The twofold problem with that theory is:

    1. If 1859 dies had already been prepared, why strengthen an 1858 die for continued use?

    2. Even more problematic - how does this theory account for the projection out of the 8 (top right) which a 9 could not have accounted for?

  9. 11 hours ago, DrLarry said:

    yes agreed I made my apology for my insensitivity ......yes apparently as a small child I remember 66 , I used to enjoy football in the days before the hyper inflated egos and salaries and and finally corruption spoiled it all for me.  I used to go every saturday and tuesday to Sutton United to watch them play, I even became a ball boy.  Sadly that love now has passed and can make no sense of it.   

    Didn't they once do a mega-giant killing in the FA Cup - someone like Coventry in the days when they were a top club?

  10. 12 hours ago, DrLarry said:

    yes agreed in part but the first attempts to rectify the problem with currency after the stoppage on the 1750's with numerous references to the counterfeit problem in the GII's. Also later   in the 1770s  the issues in 70 to 75 led to an even greater forging.  

    Yes, but as we've already established, these were so crude they were obviously not meant to fool anyone, but simply get around the small change shortage

    True there may have been a still great need for the lower denominations but it would seem the  initial coppers were made to appear to all intents to deceive the penalty being deportation it was after all treason so it has to be worth someone's effort and risk.  Later when the strictness of the law forbade this first round  but seemed to look less harshly on "tokens" was it not then that the creation of the non regal series including tokens like Britons glory, and the alfreds and the many others I find it a joy to collect came into circulation?  It was not until the 1780's that the tokens "Condors" began to be released issued locally the earliest copper tokens I have is from 1730's. 

    You've made my point for me - it was the clumsy forgeries of the 1770-75 issue that saw the widespread renaissance of trade tokens

    Whatever the reasons be they the need for the lower denominations in the 1770's because of the circulation of the worn out later 17th C early 18th C coppers there existed an opportunity for some to make money.  If I am reading Peck and the soho book correctly and atkins it is a fine line between the needs and the lucrative counterfeiting of copper, especially for circulation in the colonies. I have never held the position that it makes that much money but I know from the few hundred examples I have that the weight varies from as much as 3 grams almost below the copper level to usually about 1 gram difference.  Obviously it did make money for some businesses the Machin's Mills coppers found in various horads attest to a similar process in the US of counterfeit Williams and Georges

    The main reason for the shortage of small change was the great fluctuation in the price of metals, e.g. copper. This persisted even after 1797 which is why the regal copper currency issues of 1797, 1799, and 1806-07 differ in their size and weight. It was only after the establishing of a 'token currency' from 1816 that the standardisation of denominations led to the familiar size of coins.

    you do not have to make a lot of money for the risk be be worthwhile in the end if the weigh value of the copper can give two half pennies for the melt value of one G II half penny then I am sure someone did the maths the net weight of a regnal is about 9.3 grams or so most of mine are 6 or 7 grams =/- 1 gm.  The earliest of the trade tokens I have are from the early 1700's from ireland.  I have a few of the George II non regnals and they are also about 2 grams light.      


  11. 11 hours ago, Rob said:

    I turned it on at the end just before Columbia scored. 

    Yes, that was the one time in the match that Columbia played better than us - and the first half of extra time.

    11 hours ago, DrLarry said:

    Then discuss the weather or something a whole lot more interesting I am simply quoting the moderator 

    Not in this thread he didn't.

  12. 4 hours ago, DrLarry said:

    .....I have limited access to gold and chemistry more complex on the basis of its chemical inter nature.  I think in silver it is more common than the base metals I just have more examples of the latter to play with.  I also think that it is expressed more in the transition to bronze simply because of the change on the technique and the chemistry hence why I saw it in the bronze first. although I might also add that the counterfeiting of copper coins in the later 1700's must surely have been one of the most deliberate acts using base metal to make a few pounds, most are obvious fakes but to an illiterate population easily accepted.  Counterfeiting has to adapt to not be caught and coinage to adapt to counter the counterfeiters. Certainly I seem to have found a ever more complex pattern over time applying new layers to the weave.   

    Not so. It was done to counteract the drastic shortage of small change - which is also why the trade token issues became so widespread. The fact that the fakes are so obvious was to 'evade' the strict laws against counterfeiting, and there is a huge demand for them in the US. If forgers had wanted to make money they would have done as they did from 1816, which was to silver wash copper forgeries of the silver denominations. The forgeries (or 'evasions') of 18th Century coppers wouldn't have made the forgers much if any money as they contained roughly their own weight of copper value.

  13. 25 minutes ago, Paddy said:

    I doubt we would ever get Rees-Mogg even standing for leadership, despite the scare-mongering of the sandalistas.

    But I think I would prefer to have the pub dog in charge rather than Corbyn or any of his cronies. Socialism is fine but Marxist Communism is a step too far!

    Since Corbyn is no further to the left than the average Cabinet Minister of Attlee and Wilson's Governments, (he's certainly not as far left as Benn or Bevin), then I think you're simply reacting to a straw dog created by the likes of Northcliffe, Desmond, and the Barclay Brothers, who are all non-domiciled press barons who don't give a sh*t about Britain as long as the £ keep rolling in.

    • Like 2

  14. 3 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

    I suppose in the last year I have become interested in the idea of the Royal Mint marking coins in some way in order to protect against forgeries and it may well be this that I might be finding.

    The problem here is that if such marks are imperceptible not only to ordinary people spending money, but also the local and police authorities, it's self-defeating; how would anyone detect a forgery to begin with? And why major on base metal coins anyway - surely the effort would have been put in to stamping out forgeries of silver and gold?

  15. 1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

    And yes I know all the arguments you "old boys" apply but it seems to me that the reason for collecting coins and understanding their history is less about the coin than it is about how much it is worth.  

    I very much dispute this. However you must recognise that to many collectors, the 'history' surrounding a coin is tied up with the actual (intended) design on it, plus the social and economic milieu that prevailed at the time of striking, plus major factors in changes to the coinage (the William III 'Great Recoinage', the 1816 Recoinage, Matthew Boulton, tokens, shortages, forgeries, changes of metal, etc etc), plus rarities, plus patterns and proofs - in fact there is so much to endlessly interest us that very often minutiae such as accidental die damage is left a long way behind. Obviously we are all different, and some collectors ARE very interested in such things especially if not recorded elsewhere, so live and let live I say!

  16. I don't believe there is any conspiracy or similar sinister thing going on. Plenty of people here - as Rob points out - post details of unusual details on their coins. I think many of us though distinguish between human intervention (= item of interest) and accidental die damage (= less interesting, at least to some of us).

    I'd posit that the two examples you've shown - the triple dot colon and the lighthouse splodge - are both examples of the latter. Some collectors might get excited by these and collect them, or even compile listings. Others like myself would not. It's all a matter of personal taste. 

    (I'd just add that, on closer inspection, the triple dot phenomenon may be a case where the first attempt was badly misaligned and repunched, but because it was 'only a colon' there wasn't a great effort to eliminate traces of the first attempt. However there are so many instances of filled dots and all the gradations in between, that even if it was a correction, I personally wouldn't get excited by it.)